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  1. #21
    clay's Avatar
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    I still think freezers are a reasonable precaution as long as you do some 'stock management' and use the older stuff first. I don't think we are going to get any warning about a product's demise. When you do, it will be too late.
    Quote Originally Posted by jandc
    Well said!.

    This is the same chicken little doom and gloom we went through last year when Forte and Ilford went into bankruptcy and everyone rushed to buy freezers for a lifetime supply of film.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flauvius
    This is addressed to the photo community in general, and to Photo Mechanic in general.

    Namely, if SW FB "AZO" printing papers are relative easy to produce, why is it that no major photographic supplier - Illford, J&C, Kentmere, or Calumet - has seized the opportunity to produce a silver chloride "AZO" type of printing paper? Indeed, given that contact printing papers can be used by all manner of photogrpahers and related artists; what financial or govermental "interests" would prefer - and are able to cause - contact printing to become extinct?

    Regards,

    Flauvius
    I'm holding a print made on single weight silver chloride contact paper that is not AZO as I write this. When the Kodak AZO runs out the replacement will be there. The funny thing is that it's not coming from one of the big names like Ilford or Kentmere who wouldn't even look at something this specialized. To those that preach put all your eggs in one basket by supporting only one manufacturer all I can tell you is that your choices would be pretty slim if the markets actually worked this way.
    www.jandcphoto.com

  3. #23
    Brac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandc
    I'm holding a print made on single weight silver chloride contact paper that is not AZO as I write this. When the Kodak AZO runs out the replacement will be there. The funny thing is that it's not coming from one of the big names like Ilford or Kentmere who wouldn't even look at something this specialized. To those that preach put all your eggs in one basket by supporting only one manufacturer all I can tell you is that your choices would be pretty slim if the markets actually worked this way.
    I think you're being a little unkind to Kentmere who as a small independent company (in the UK) will consider unusual items, for examplee in recent years they have produced a run of printing-out paper which is hardly a mass seller.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brac
    I think you're being a little unkind to Kentmere who as a small independent company (in the UK) will consider unusual items, for examplee in recent years they have produced a run of printing-out paper which is hardly a mass seller.
    They produce it because the production is pre purchased and doesn't require them to do anything other than make the run. No risk at all for them. This is different than producing something and putting it on the market through your regular dealer network and taking the risks assocoated with marketing a new product.
    www.jandcphoto.com

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    Because the market is too small compared to that of people using VC double weight paper. VC and graded papers are usable both for enlarging as well as contact printing. Silver chloride papers can only be used for contact printing unless you are willing to shell out a couple of thou on a special head.
    There are at least three factors that objectively should cause the market for silver chloride pritning to be far larger than the present market for projection printing papers.

    First, large and ultra-larger format photographers have become a major - and quite possibly the dominant - segment of the remaining practioners of analogue photography. Second, in this era in which ever limited disposable "home-space" to store an enlarger and related photorgaphic equipment has become an issue, contact prints with their unsurpassed gradation of tone and non-existence of grain present the definitive photographic fine art stanrdards, that for many criticial black and white photogrpahers, no other printing process can equal.

    As such, the claim that the market for silver chloride papers is - or in the near future will continue to be - too small for commerical production warrants serious reconsideration. Indeed, in light of J&C Photo's post in this thread - as to the apparent existence of a non-Kodak AZO - reconsideration of the coventional arguments which seek to explain and justify the present non-aviablity of silver chloride pritning papers other than Kodak's AZO is long overdue.

    Regards,

    Flauvius
    .

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flauvius
    This is addressed to the photo community in general, and to Photo Mechanic in general.

    Namely, if SW FB "AZO" printing papers are relative easy to produce, why is it that no major photographic supplier - Illford, J&C, Kentmere, or Calumet - has seized the opportunity to produce a silver chloride "AZO" type of printing paper? Indeed, given that contact printing papers can be used by all manner of photogrpahers and related artists; what financial or govermental "interests" would prefer - and are able to cause - contact printing to become extinct?

    Regards,

    Flauvius
    This was well answered in another post, but I'll add my comment as well.

    The market for Azo paper and, in fact, all contact papers is so small that Kodak was able to supply it with one small run of Azo each year. That is compared to round the clock operations on several machines 24/7/365 for color paper at several plants for a comparison.

    There is no possible comparison between the magnitude of the market when you consider this and the fact that the Azo they made was partly unsold as it was, because the market was smaller than one run and so the rest went to waste sometimes.

    Michael and Paula have posted their efforts to continue the Azo legacy and I applaud them for that. I hope that their efforts bear fruit. But, no one is going to get rich on making a contact paper.

    The evidence for the size of the market is the large variety of contact papers out there and all of the companies rushing to produce more and more SW FB Baryta papers. ~remove tongue from cheek~

    BTW, you hire a mechanic to fix your car, you hire an engineer to design one. Even though an engineer can fix a car, there is a big difference between the two. ~insert smiley of choice here~

    PE

  7. #27

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    Kodak did not make one small production run of Azo per year. They made master rolls once every 4-5 years and did not produce more until they sold through.
    Scott Killian
    www.scottkillian.com

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by skillian
    Kodak did not make one small production run of Azo per year. They made master rolls once every 4-5 years and did not produce more until they sold through.
    Well, since there was more than one grade of Azo paper, and it was not entirely produced in Rochtser and etc., the picture is even more complex than either of us state, but the gist of it is that on average we are both essentially right.

    Sometimes a batch was not sold entirely and even worse, some didn't turn out very well as we are all aware. And I think that both of us would agree that for EK, one small production run is one master roll and depending on demand that run based on what either of us recollect, could vary in timing and even in size.

    BTW, have you ever seen wet SW FB paper tear on a coating machine? At coating speeds? Sometimes it is best to just clean the machine, re-thread it and go on to the next job rather than try to finish up the master roll that just tore, while making a minor product. Sometimes you take what you can get!

    PE

  9. #29

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    They say they forcast 20% decline this year, so I wonder if the loss of Agfa and Kodak paper has revesed this?

    But TBH I hope Kodak don't pull out of B&W film. I think Fuji made a positive proccessing paper (like Ilfochrome) until last year and they pulled that, but nobody is expecting them to pull out of slide film.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajuk
    I think Fuji made a positive proccessing paper (like Ilfochrome) until last year and they pulled that, but nobody is expecting them to pull out of slide film.
    Fuji still produces two papers designed for making prints directly from transparencies: Fujichrome Type 35 and Type 35 Supergloss - both are in limited availabilities (whatever that means) though.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
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    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

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