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  1. #11
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    John, your reasoning makes sense. If DW became easier to make as PE says, then I can believe the manufacturers used the sales force to spread misinformation in an effort to ween the public away from it.

    That would also explain why it may be "preferred" for exhibition prints. I don't buy this one at all. What, pray tell, makes a DW paper more preferred than SW for exhibition, other than the artist's personal belief, which may be based upon what a sales person said, or, as I've said before, the Gospel of St. Ansel?

    As far as curl is concerned, yeah, SW curls more upon drying. But so does DW and my experience says the slight curl of DW is just as hard, if not harder, to eliminate than the distinct curl of SW. Both types can be nicely flattened with no more technology that being under a stack of books for a few days.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  2. #12
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    Petzi has it all down pat. The coating speeds of 50 to 100 years ago ranged in the 10 - 100 ft/min, whereas today it is far greater than that. Since machines are bigger, a tear really stops things up pretty well.

    But, since EFKE still coats rather in the low range of speeds, it should be easier for them to coat SW paper, so economics must be the driving force for them, I guess.

    PE

  3. #13
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    OK, now its starting to come together. Increase coating machine speeds to increase production which in turn, lowers cost, increases or maintains profit margin. SW starts losing because of the lower volume of production. Therefore, two things happen. Marketing starts pushing DW and everyone starts believing SW is no good.

    Throw in Ansel Adams' text where he says he prefers DW and BINGO! How much did Ansel get in consulting fees each year from Kodak?

    Hey, maybe John at JandC will come to our rescue? Small company not needing a bizillion feet per minute on the coating machine could make this work, as EFKE has already indicated.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  4. #14
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    It's available from Fujifilm.

    Fujifilm makes a beautiful single weight fiber paper called Rembrandt. It's variable grade, with a fairly glossy surface. If you're interested, I can send some to you without a mark-up. I use it on occassion, but find it difficult to keep it from creasing in the wash. Yours, Matt

  5. #15
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    During the period of time that AA made that statement there was concern about how a print should be presented for exhibition. There was a great number of Adams desciples and the beginning of the belief that photography was art. A news paper print or a commercial photo could be made on SW,
    however to mount and frame a single weight print was unheard of. During that same period that photographer had dozens of textured papers readily available in most any photo shop. The textures were chosen to enhance and compliment the content of the negative, to use single weight glossy for a gallery print would not have been accepted or hung.

    I believe the art photographers also had a hand in bringing about SW's demise with their demands for DW.

    This time frame was in the mid to late 50's. The printing industry, book and
    newspapers needed SW glossie for half tones, and they became the minority using SW paper.

    If any one produced a SW paper today, I personally would like to see it in graded, rather than VC.

    Charlie........................................... ............

  6. #16
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltronic
    Fujifilm makes a beautiful single weight fiber paper called Rembrandt. It's variable grade, with a fairly glossy surface. If you're interested, I can send some to you without a mark-up. I use it on occassion, but find it difficult to keep it from creasing in the wash. Yours, Matt
    Thanks Matt. I'll PM you tomorrow. Too bad Fuji paper isn't distributed here in the USA.

    Charlie, thanks for your knowledgeable insight. More pieces of the puzzle are falling in place.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  7. #17
    David H. Bebbington's Avatar
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    During my years as a full-time pro in the 60s and 70s, I must have handled thousands of SW prints. I have always regarded this paper's reason for being as its suitability for hot glazing (ferrotyping), very often using rotary machines. Apart from anything else, the ferrotyping operation got rid of any slight creases, dents, etc. There is of course the fact that SW paper is easier to wash thoroughly, but this was not an argument at the time.

    It is my impression that the cessation of hot ferrotyping (and the switch to RC paper when high-gloss prints are required) meant the death of SW paper, certainly it must have killed the demand for the vast quantities which commercial studios used to use. I certainly would not like to make a SW print and present it as an "art" print (air-dried unglazed), I think it would look like a piece of chewed rag, even hot mounting would likely not press out all the small creases and I personally find SW unnecessarily difficult to handle both during processing and after.

  8. #18

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    thanks charlie + and PE
    and here i was thinking it was
    the salesman "ballooning the sale" as they say

    i am glad i am wrong a lot of the time!

    john
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
    artwork often times sold for charity
    PM me for details

  9. #19
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by David H. Bebbington
    ... I certainly would not like to make a SW print and present it as an "art" print (air-dried unglazed), I think it would look like a piece of chewed rag, even hot mounting would likely not press out all the small creases and I personally find SW unnecessarily difficult to handle both during processing and after.
    So has anyone tried wet-mounting SW paper?
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  10. #20
    David H. Bebbington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    So has anyone tried wet-mounting SW paper?
    I'm sure it can be done - I've seen enough Victorian albumen prints (very thin paper base) cheerfully pasted into books - but I'm equally sure that there would be problems with creases unless you were VERY careful!

    Regards,

    David

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