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  1. #21
    Fintan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    Will anyone step up to the plate and re-invent emulsion making and coating?
    I think if 1000 APUGers put up $100 each as a prize something like The Milenenium Prize we would have teams of people across the planet trying to achieve this.

  2. #22
    Sean's Avatar
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    What also might be helpful is locating a billionaire photography collector who is passionate about traditional image making. Then get them to hire Dean Kamen and his team of geniuses at Deka Research to re-invent emulsion making and coating

  3. #23
    DBP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The problem is that over the internet we don't know who is 'real' and who is not. I have been fighting this problem, as many people refused to believe that I was 'for real' when I first began posting.

    How many people out there have said that they are making and coating emulsions, but how many have presented results? I have not only presented my results, but have offered my coatings, emulsions and technology to others, and now they are beginning to post results.

    How many are posting disinformation or abuse or false claims, or hollow claims? Ian Grant and others have warned about posts on Wikipedia, especially on some of the photographic sites.

    I have friends who have quit posting rather than fight the disinformation or verbal abuse they have been sujbect to when they try to give out good information.

    This is another side of a many faceted problem. It is the more seamy side of the current situation that is mainly overlooked. It can discourage good work from being disseminated.

    PE
    This is true of all fields on the internet, not just this one. One of the unfortunate effects of the democratization of information is that the barriers to entry have become essentially eradicated, thus allowing anyone to proclaim expertise. This is often accompanied by outlandish hypotheses that would never stand the light of day. Add to that a crippled educational system that does not equip the average individual to distinguish between expertise and gobbledygook, and you have a recipe for trouble. The thing that worries me is that it also allows people to easily avoid any information that might challenge their assumptions about facts and the nature of reality, a trend which is having pernicious effects on public discourse, at least in the US.

    But I am ranting, having just read that silly bit about how cameras can't focus.

    On the internet, no one knows that you're a dog - Scott Adams, writing as Dogbert.

  4. #24
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBP View Post
    This is true of all fields on the internet, not just this one. One of the unfortunate effects of the democratization of information is that the barriers to entry have become essentially eradicated, thus allowing anyone to proclaim expertise. This is often accompanied by outlandish hypotheses that would never stand the light of day. Add to that a crippled educational system that does not equip the average individual to distinguish between expertise and gobbledygook, and you have a recipe for trouble. The thing that worries me is that it also allows people to easily avoid any information that might challenge their assumptions about facts and the nature of reality, a trend which is having pernicious effects on public discourse, at least in the US.

    But I am ranting, having just read that silly bit about how cameras can't focus.
    I missed the one about the cameras. Please post the URL. Thanks.

    In any event, you have stated the problem perfectly. The problem is that it is driving a lot of real experts to despair. They are giving up the internet as a means of exchanging information due to the abuse they get. Some never even started using it due to the stories of abuse that abound from some of us on the recieving end.

    PE

  5. #25
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    What also might be helpful is locating a billionaire photography collector who is passionate about traditional image making.
    That's what is needed.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  6. #26
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Ahhh, I found the URL about the focus problem of lenses. Aha.

    PE

  7. #27
    Christopher Nisperos's Avatar
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    Another analogy —kind of— is one-hour photolabs. Until the Japanese invented them, seemingly nobody ever imagined they were possible. Chime-in, Ron . . . do you know whether or not Kodak had this idea hidden in the back of a drawer somewhere while thinking, "Naw! This'd never make money" ?:rolleyes

    More seriously, in thinking about this micro-brewery concept, I do have one question —if perhaps naïve. Which is more difficult (on more than a small scale): making an emulsion, or coating a support?

    Best,

    Christopher

    .
    Last edited by Christopher Nisperos; 01-02-2007 at 05:47 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #28
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Nisperos View Post
    Another analogy —kind of— is one-hour photolabs. Until the Japanese invented them, seemingly nobody ever imagined they were possible (chime-in, Ron . . . do you know whether or not Kodak had this idea hidden in the back of a drawer somewhere while thinking, "Naw! This'd never make money" ?:rolleyes

    Best,

    Christopher

    .
    Among other items, the last entry in my notebook in about 1982 or thereabouts, when I went out of product and process development and into emulsion work was a complete outline of a minilab for processing and printing.

    Along with that went a process that minimized wash with a very powerful stabilzer that reduced wash considerably, and a process cartridge that allowed the effluent to be virtually potable water. The cartridge was then compressed and burned as fuel with little or no gaseoous byproducts.

    It was turned down as 'outlandish'.

    But then, these same people thought the name 'blix' was outlandish and selected 'bleach-fix'. Oh well. Some Hunt people came through the labs and saw our label Blix, and took it back and copyrighted it so Kodak couldn't use it.

    Eventually, Kodak did start a group working on the minilab and I think it was independant of the Japanese effort.

    PE

  9. #29
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    I should add that in the 70s, we had a light sensitive copper system that had a printing speed near that of Kodabromide paper. It was surprisingly fast.

    I have mentioned this before here. It involved the precipitation of Cuprous Oxide emulsions rather than silver halide. The big problem was finding a binder that resisted strong acid and base and allowed the emulsion to be washed properly.

    The images were not very stable. We were working on methods of stabilzing the copper metal images at the time the project ended.

    PE

  10. #30
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    What also might be helpful is locating a billionaire photography collector who is passionate about traditional image making. Then get them to hire Dean Kamen and his team of geniuses at Deka Research to re-invent emulsion making and coating
    Leonard Nimoy comes to mind.

    PE

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