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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by haris View Post
    So, we should raise awareness of good old krafts, photography first, because we are interested in it, but let us try to preserve other things too. What kind of people we are if we fight only for photography and let other old krafts to die? Selfish?

    We should try to show t oyoung people that because some knowledge and kraft is old it doesn't mean it is "old" outdated and it will make them outdated. We should try to show that those krafts, photography in first place, will only make them more interesting, more skilfull and more proud to themselves...

    OK, now I am talking Utopia, but I can't help myself, I just love those old things, and photography is at top...

    Regards
    Ever watch Roy Underhill? He has a way of capturing an audience to explain old time woodworking. He even wrote a book about the method he uses to do so - Kruschev's Old Shoe. People can be reached about the value of old things but it takes the right skills.

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The equipment is so confidential, it is scrapped.

    It is worth more as scrap than you can pay to own it.

    It is anchored to the company property on concrete posts to prevent movement and prevent defects. You cannot pay enough to move it and the company won't let you use their plant.

    So, there are a few reasons. The bottom line is that the equipment is generally either useless or destroyed. Some companies in financial difficulties actually use their equipment until it fails. Then they go out of business because they have no funds for repair.

    I have seen the condition of the equipment of some manufacturers as it exists today. It is in pretty bad shape, considering that some was running at the time I saw it.
    So, we are talking about the time bomb here, sort of. Aren't there any grants or any conservation programs to save them as what they are and have them repaired to work in a better condition? I don't mean to pick any particluar company for this, but don't we need to do something about them even far more seriously than we think we do? I really think this is beyond the product availability issue in traditional photography.

    I remember reading you comment on Forte and other 2nd and 3rd tier companies; if a price raise drives the consumers of 1st tier products into buying the 2nd and 3rd tier products more, these smaller companies will soon overload their task, and their product quality begins to deteriorate. But if the 1st tier companies are already exceeding their limits by running their poorly maintained (or almost not maintained at all) old and beatup machines today, it seems there's almost no luck for the "future generations" to have anything good and usable in their hands.

    Isn't this already a sucide ride? Are we the remaining consumers weighing too much on the tiny "lifeboat"?

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
    I think the successful takeover and operation of a coating plant or high-quality / consistency home-coating of film is a much taller order, would be limited to a very small minority of the APUG membership and (while I understand your intentions are honourable) may not be turn out to be the best way of helping traditional photography.
    I know I must be dreaming hard, but I believe that's the only way to do it in a long run. I also acknowledge your points and I think we all agree on them.

    But one thing we don't know is that how much bigger or smaller APUG will get regarding this trend. I mean not every film photographer has to find their home at APUG, but it's certainly better to send a message across and get educated more efficient in a way as a community since there's no other sofisticated website quite like this. So, if more people join here, despite the language barrier or whatever, we may turn out quite big.

    I think this is like, to some extent, voting because influencing and convincing the "undecided" "untapped" population seems to be the key to gain support and make a change. You and I are already in the game, so we have to have more people to get involved in the process.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecracker View Post
    So, we are talking about the time bomb here, sort of. Aren't there any grants or any conservation programs to save them as what they are and have them repaired to work in a better condition? I don't mean to pick any particluar company for this, but don't we need to do something about them even far more seriously than we think we do? I really think this is beyond the product availability issue in traditional photography.

    I remember reading you comment on Forte and other 2nd and 3rd tier companies; if a price raise drives the consumers of 1st tier products into buying the 2nd and 3rd tier products more, these smaller companies will soon overload their task, and their product quality begins to deteriorate. But if the 1st tier companies are already exceeding their limits by running their poorly maintained (or almost not maintained at all) old and beatup machines today, it seems there's almost no luck for the "future generations" to have anything good and usable in their hands.

    Isn't this already a sucide ride? Are we the remaining consumers weighing too much on the tiny "lifeboat"?
    I have posted several items on deteriorating quality in 2nd and 3rd tier companies, due probably to the effect you mention. They are ramping up and straining the facility.

    As for coating machines, get Fuji to donate one to Chiba University. Professor Kubo or his wife might be contacts. He is retired and she is still teaching there from what I understand.

    Kodak donated 2 coating machines. One to RIT and the other to GEH. Both are antiques. They wouldn't be worth anything but as an antique. Coating technology is totally different today than what it was even 50 years ago or 40 years ago.

    PE

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dfan View Post
    Ever watch Roy Underhill? He has a way of capturing an audience to explain old time woodworking. He even wrote a book about the method he uses to do so - Kruschev's Old Shoe. People can be reached about the value of old things but it takes the right skills.
    One thing I loved about watching Roy Underhill, is that he seemed to shoot the entire show in one take.. and most of the projects obviously took longer than the 28 minutes he had. He got more and more frantic as his time was running out.

    Showing others.. and leading by example might not give immediate results, but I do believe it at least plants a seed. Some of those seeds will germinate. Some will blossom and grow into things the sower can not imagine. Roy Underhill did/does that. I think several people here do it too, whether they realize it or not.
    Jonathan
    -----------------------------------------------

  6. #116
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    Well, I wish I had an apprentice that had a lot of time so that I could teach him/her everything I know.

    PE

  7. #117

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    I think an overall view of the situation might be helpful. Years back, and as recently as 10 years ago, almost everyone had and used film cameras. That made an enormous consumer market for film. Hence the huge companies like Kodak and Fuji that cranked out literally tons of film. Now the consumer market, where the bulk of sales are, has largely switched to digital. Film sales have thus fallen off considerably. In this falling market we are going to have to expect that there are going to be fewer sellers of film in the future. We shouldn't necessarily be concerned about that per se, because there must now be a huge overcapacity of film manufacturing equipment since it was geared for a huge market that has diminished greatly. I am more concerned with getting color film in the future than b&w because I think there are a lot more small manufacturers of b&w than color due to simpler processes, etc. I suspect that even today the bulk of film sales is color. I am not sure if anyone other than Kodak and Fuji make color film? Those companies will make color film only as long as it is profitable, and huge overcapacity will make profitability more difficult. We should support any smaller manufacturer that produces color as well as b&w films, and is committed to servicing the film market.

  8. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    As for coating machines, get Fuji to donate one to Chiba University. Professor Kubo or his wife might be contacts. He is retired and she is still teaching there from what I understand.
    I think you have patiently mentioned his name a few time to me, but I have not been able to find it at the website of the university. Could you give me a little more info on this? What department is he in?

    Meanwhile I always wonder what all other photographers and photo-related people are doing in time of this crisis. One thing I know is that I cannot find anything substantial about them online for some reason, and they don't come here, so what's my chance?

  9. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by reellis67 View Post
    Could not the advent of film have had this same level of impact (or at least something that comes close) on the glass plate world? It seems that many of the same arguments could be made between plates and film as are made with film and d****l, and look how long it tool glass plates to go away...

    - Randy
    Probably true - I have a photography book from Kodak, copyright 1900. It discusses what was all state-of-the-art then. The glass plate guys of 1900 are like the film guys of today, while the film users of 1900 were like the D users today.

    It's actually pretty comical, looking at the big picture. Glass plates are still in use somewhat, correct? Film didn't kill them off.

    Sometimes the past is a good indicator of the future.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
    .... best way to ensure that high quality materials are available for future generations is to support the existing manufacturers of those products by -

    1. Buying and using their products
    2. Opening channels of communication between the manufacturers and APUG
    3. Raising the public profile of film photography by getting out there and being seen in numbers using traditional equipment

    It seems clear that one of the biggest obstacles in this well meaning but vague discussion is that few of us have much idea about the film and paper manufacturing process and what it involves. Going back to FrankB's 3 (or 4) commandments, no 2 could be well served by the manufacturers running a 'question time' thread on this forum on a regular basis.

    Simon from Ilford Photo is pretty much doing this anyway, but maybe it could be done on a timetabled basis, and other people from the Ilford organisation come on line as well. Ilford regard APUG as a powerful influence within their area of operation, so they would probablybe unlikely



 

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