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  1. #31
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    I agree with what Tsuyoshi is saying about showing how accessible these processes are.

    It took me years to buy a darned scale so I could mix up my own developers. Crossing that barrier and experimenting for a few years was what I needed to do to start experimenting with handcoated emulsions and realizing how easy it was.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  2. #32

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    << I mean really; cooking up a batch of 120 in your kitchen using the carefully saved paper backs from past rolls? Shooting at speeds of ISO 5? >>

    I'd try it. It doesn't sound that hard. I might eat my words after, but I'd come out of it smarter.

    Nor does ISO 5 doesn't sound bad to me - again, I might eat my words after.

    If people have to make their own plates, it won't be any different than muzzleloader enthusiasts making their own weapons, or flint-knappers doing their thing. Agreed that most will just give it up and move on - but those who are left will be hard-core, and know their stuff inside and out.

    I'd guess that when film goes belly-up, chemical photography will be knocked back to the late 1800s, just before Kodak came out with film. The photos will probably be similar to those times, too, but with modern subjects.

    You or I could be a Matthew Brady impersonator at a Civil War reenactment.

  3. #33
    timbo10ca's Avatar
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    Somebody mentioned earlier- some people just aren't interested in photography. I'll take that a little further, by adding the fact that as a society we are getting lazier and lazier. Digital photography is great! It's fast (instant feedback), cheap (no more film or processing to pay for), and easy (take a hundred pictures, figure out what you're doing wrong, and correct it if you're so inclined). The learning curve is far less steep that for film. Then on top of things, if the shot isn't quite right, just fix it in photoshop, which is *much* easier to do, with a *far* less steep learning curve than a wet darkroom. Plus way cheaper- no added equipment, as everybody already has a computer. I'll admit this to you guys, but to none of my friends or family who think I'm nuts by "reverting" through analog and B&W photography: I get a much better result much faster in Photoshop than I do after a day in my darkroom. I delve deeper into film because I have a passion for it. It holds that magic for me. Not many "newbies" do though. I see a Digital SLR in my future to compliment but not replace my current gear. When I got back into photography from a mere interest throughout my life to a serious learning endeavor, I made the difficult choice of film or digital. I was only even really aware of 35mm at that time. All the film companies were still going strong... but just. AGFA folded within a year. I chose film to learn by the "school of hard knocks" I called it. If I could figure out color slide film with confidence, I could do any kind of photography. I wanted to learn it "right"....... I'm a rarity it seems- everybody who knows me thinks I'm an oddball. Personally, I think our lazy society is going to doom film photography to the point that it will be very expensive and labour intesive to continue practicing it in the next few decades. Digital is going to be able to replicate what we do to the minutest pixel and strand of fibre. Laziness will prevail....... But in the meantime I'm going to be as loud as I can about my passion, and keep buying the products from companies that will support me. Everything evolves- it's nature.
    If only we could pull out our brains and use only our eyes. P. Picasso

    http://www.timbowlesphotography.com

  4. #34
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    You might also discover that some older processes make things easier. The self-masking property of printing-out processes makes scenes that have a wide contrast range a snap.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
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  5. #35

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    Really, last time when asked someone to give you his/hers address when you got home address? When you gave your home address? Today everyone when asked for address give E_mail addresses. When last time you divided two numbers manually instead using calculator? When last time you wrote letter by hand instead type it on computer, and printed it, if you didn't already send it as E_mail? Why we should preserve photography if we don't preserve hand writting, manual calculation and other good old habbits/krafts?

    What I am trying to tell we love photography, but rest of the world see it as handwritting, something nobody except theire grandparents do.

    And if young people don't handwrite letters, how do we expect them to performe photography? For them those two things are in same league, that is ancient history.

    So, we should raise awareness of good old krafts, photography first, because we are interested in it, but let us try to preserve other things too. What kind of people we are if we fight only for photography and let other old krafts to die? Selfish?

    We should try to show t oyoung people that because some knowledge and kraft is old it doesn't mean it is "old" outdated and it will make them outdated. We should try to show that those krafts, photography in first place, will only make them more interesting, more skilfull and more proud to themselves...

    OK, now I am talking Utopia, but I can't help myself, I just love those old things, and photography is at top...

    Regards
    Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
    No things in life should be left unfinis

  6. #36
    Shinnya's Avatar
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    I do agree that some people are not interested in photography. But that is precisely where we need to change the approach.

    I think it is difficult to find someone who does not want to do something creative or being/feeling creative about themselves. So, they may not be interested in photography per se, but they can be interested in becoming or feeling creative by "utilizing the medium of photography." I think that is how we should sell photography in general.

    People who take classes here are not necessarily interested in photography per se again. They are interested in creative activities. What we have to teach is that photography can be one of those activities. We try to understand that needs and try to nurture it in a way that is welcoming to anyone who may have a difficulties understanding the technical side of photography. I think that is partly why the majority of people who take classes are woman here.

    Again, we need to make it accessible to people.

    Warmly,
    Tsuyoshi
    ----- P R O J E C T B A S H O -----
    Re-introducing Photography to Philadelphia
    Summer '11 Photography Workshops

  7. #37

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    Oh, and I forget ot tell. Two days ago one girl asked me where she can buy that "needle" for tuntable. She found old turntable from her parents and about 1000 vinyl records, and she is more then willing to listen them...

    So, there is hope
    Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
    No things in life should be left unfinis

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
    Not according to any retailer I've spoken too. High cost of stock; rapid depreciation of stock (as a result of new models); very low mark-ups...

    None of it adds up to the sort of revenue (NOT profit) which even allows you to pay a half-sensible wage to half-competent staff.

    Cheers,

    R.
    Well, the Digital Camera phenomenon has brought a lot more customers into the store, and even "if" the margins on digital are smaller, there are several factors here that are not obvious to most people. One thing, is the agressive marketing of the major vendors, where the store can stock a large inventory and not even be required to pay for it for 90 days or more, and the other "hidden" thing is the "spiffs" or comissions paid directly to the sales clerk from the camera manufacturer for each sale. These items encourage sales of the newest, latest product.

    Then there are all the "un-needed" accessories and service contracts that most stores try to push onto the consumer, which are almost pure profit, with 100's of percent markup. The customer is more likely to purchase a skylight filter to "protect" the lens of his $1000. digital camera, than he is to do the same for a $250 entry level film SLR. Plus, he needs another battery, a compact flash card or two, a protective carry case, etc.. It is the consumer model for this type of activity that supports the manufacturers of photographic stuff.

  9. #39
    timbo10ca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haris View Post
    Oh, and I forget ot tell. Two days ago one girl asked me where she can buy that "needle" for tuntable. She found old turntable from her parents and about 1000 vinyl records, and she is more then willing to listen them...

    So, there is hope
    One of my favorite pieces of home theatre equipment is my vintage Thorens. Nobody else I know has a turntable, except my father in law. He still shoots slides. I think it's a personality type. People like us are out there, and yes, We should try to encourage them to bloom. I don't know how easy it will be to convert digi-minded folk in our digi-world. We just have to keep supporting these companies and in turn, hopefully they will continue to support us. Problem with "buying as you need", and not hoarding, is that we never really know when a company is going to go under. If you have a product you love to use, you may not want to risk losing it. Then the death toll sounds, and there's a scramble for everybody to buy up existing stocks (that's how I've observed it, anyway). I've been lucky so far- I haven't used products from any of the companies that have gone under. I'm still sad that I'll not get to explore them, as they sound like great products. There are a number of older products I've read about that have gone the way of the Dodo, that I would have liked to have tried. Moral of this pointless story: God bless Ilford and Fuji.....
    If only we could pull out our brains and use only our eyes. P. Picasso

    http://www.timbowlesphotography.com

  10. #40
    FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timbo10ca View Post
    Somebody mentioned earlier- some people just aren't interested in photography. I'll take that a little further, by adding the fact that as a society we are getting lazier and lazier.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by timbo10ca View Post
    Digital photography is great! It's fast (instant feedback), cheap (no more film or processing to pay for), and easy (take a hundred pictures, figure out what you're doing wrong, and correct it if you're so inclined). The learning curve is far less steep that for film. Then on top of things, if the shot isn't quite right, just fix it in photoshop, which is *much* easier to do, with a *far* less steep learning curve than a wet darkroom. Plus way cheaper- no added equipment, as everybody already has a computer.
    I'm not going to get into the whole A vs. D thing for the millionth time on APUG, but I'd dispute most of the above. D has some advantages but these are frequently over-hyped. A also has advantages and these are often discounted or ignored.

    My suggestions -

    Firstly promote traditional photography and stimulate interest in it by getting out there in groups and shooting in public places. At every UK Gathering the sight of a few people with old (looking!) cameras usually on tripods has prompted interest and questions. At the very least it combats the myth that film-based photography is already dead.

    If it persuades a few to give film another try, or a first try then that's a few more keeping the products we need on the shelves. If not, well we might get a few good images out of it!

    How? Attend your local gathering. No local gathering? Post a message on your regional forum and ask if anyone's interested in meeting up for a shoot in or around such-and-such-a-place. Be approachable to passers-by. Don't preach. Be polite and encouraging. If nothing else, it's a day out making photographs!

    Don't wait for someone else to do it; you do it! All it takes is a camera and film! Don't just do it once, do it once a month! You might even enjoy yourself!


    What else?

    [Addendum] Get more manufacturers in touch with the APUG membership. Ilford have engaged and this has brought mutual benfits. Fuji has had some limited contact. Several equipment manufacturers are members. What about the rest?

    Do you have a contact at a photo-manufacturing company? Drop them a line and invite them to APUG.

    Do you have a manufacturer whose products you would hate to see vanish? Drop them a line, tell them how much you value their products. Invite them here to talk to their customer base. [End Addendum]


    If you choose to stockpile film or paper, don't stop buying. Use your stock as a buffer to cushion you against a possible stop in production, but keep buying as you use it and rotate your stock through your freezer on a First-In-First-Out basis.

    More?

    Build a library of formulae and techniques here on APUG. Preserve the knowledge. With today's technology it might be impractical to have a coating plant with consistant quality on a small scale. We don't know what technology will be around at the point in the future if / when we need it.


    The future may not be as bleak as it appears. Ilford have repeatedly stated that they're in it for the long haul. There have been recent posts to the effect that some of the other firms (Kentmere in particular) are doing well too. Products have been discontinued, but others have been brought back and a few new ones have been introduced.

    We do what we can. We can do no more than that.
    Last edited by FrankB; 01-19-2007 at 05:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

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