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  1. #51
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    No, there is no way to make perfed film at home. Someone would have to build a machine to do it. Coating quality and other factors would also tend to degrade results too much.

    PE
    Quote Originally Posted by firecracker View Post
    So, basically you're saying we will not go beyond the current state of dependence, our manufacturer-dependent attitude for that type of film.

    I have a feeling my future camera would be a Sony or Panasonic...
    Yes, Firecracker,

    PE has consigned those of us who use 35mm to the dustbin of filmdom. He will lead his small, merry band of coaters as they hunker down in redoubts and preserve the ancient art.

    As I said earlier, I have my Nikkor glass - and it is not obsolete - and I will continue to use it until they pry it from my cold, dead hands!

  2. #52

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    Stop funding art colleges if they scrap their darkrooms.
    Up to the time I sold my commercial printing plant we had a profitable niche market in steel and copper die engraved stationery, foil stamping and embossing.
    The new owners threw away all the equipment and re-assigned the staff because although showing a higher margin of profit than offset printing it was "too small a percentage of the total sales" to bother with finicky customers. Sound like a well known photo products manufacturer?
    Today there is not a lawyer, doctor or art school grad who knows the beauty of engraved stationery- at least around here. I still do some foil stamping and embossing 8 hours a day but when I quit it's the end of that.
    Mark
    Mark Layne
    Nova Scotia
    and Barbados

  3. #53
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecracker View Post
    So, my ultimate question is, is there a way to make 35mm roll film (with decent coating) at home? Where do I get the materials? How do I make sprocket holes?
    PE has answered the question but I will expand on it and digress a little.

    First, this question points directly to the technology required to make films and papers. Its one thing to be able to devise the emulsion, but quite another to actually produce high quality emulsion coated products. Devising the technology to produce reliable and consistent film/paper was the key in bringing them to the market.

    Second, there is the availability of the components; the piece parts. Film base, paper base and individual chemical compounds. If 35mm film produciton ceases on a commercial scale, I think it is far beyond the means of the average person to even consider attempting to make the base.

    We have already seen several Polaroid products be discontinued because components have become unavailable. PE has said the demand for baryta paper (the paper component for fiber-based paper) has shrunk to the extent where it's production may be in danger in a few years. Aagin, making baryta paper on an individual basis is beyond the means and capability, I think.

    So where is this leading us? Back to technology that was in use a century ago I think. Large cameras, home-made emulsions coated on glass plates for negatives, coated on commonly available papers for prints. Is there still some variety available in these heretofore "alt" processes? Sure there is.

    Here's another thought. I have an old Kodak 3A folding camera. The bellows is shot, the film size for it went extinct 35 years ago. It makes a post-card size negative which probably qualifies as large format but its not a large camera. It can be comfortably carried and hand-held. I found the user's manual on the 'Net one night and was astonished to discover that a plate holder had been available for these cameras as an option. OK, methinks, if I could somehow get or make a plate holder, this thing could become operable again.

    PE has consigned those of us who use 35mm to the dustbin of filmdom. He will lead his small, merry band of coaters as they hunker down in redoubts and preserve the ancient art.
    HMMM, methinks again. Would it be possible to make a plate holder that would adapt to a 35mm camera? Yes, I believe that is quite possible. There have been 120 and 70mm film backs for 35mm cameras in the past. A plate adapted to a 35mm camera body would make a negative of at least 35mm size, perhaps slightly larger. I believe this is quite feasible and could be done at an affordable cost.

    The downside would be having to carry glass plates around which are somewhat fragile. The rapid-shoot utility of 35mm would also be lost. But, the extremely versatile camera system would still be of use.

    So, all is not going to be lost. Adversity stimulates creativity which is a good thing.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  4. #54
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    Yes, Firecracker,

    PE has consigned those of us who use 35mm to the dustbin of filmdom. He will lead his small, merry band of coaters as they hunker down in redoubts and preserve the ancient art.

    As I said earlier, I have my Nikkor glass - and it is not obsolete - and I will continue to use it until they pry it from my cold, dead hands!
    Laugh if you will Mr. Ham, but unless you can put some emulsion behind that Nikkor glass, your cold dead hands are just that; cold and dead. No one gives a hoot about the glass used to make the photo. So unless you start engaging your brain, that prized glass is going to become just another favored paper weight.

    FWIW, I'm sitting here contemplating entering a photo in the Silver contest made with PE's emulsion and hand coated on a non-traditional paper. In fact, I think you just convinced me to do it. Thanks for the idea!
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  5. #55
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    Could not the advent of film have had this same level of impact (or at least something that comes close) on the glass plate world? It seems that many of the same arguments could be made between plates and film as are made with film and d****l, and look how long it tool glass plates to go away...

    - Randy

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    As I said earlier, I have my Nikkor glass - and it is not obsolete - and I will continue to use it until they pry it from my cold, dead hands!
    Seriously, people like you and I can gather up some brains and money to buy the 35mm-roll-film-producing machine from a dying and/or dead manufacturers and start running a new business for the 35mm-film-diehard-users' community. I only prefer B&W, but you know we can talk about that later. I think there's just too much aesthetic values (grainy look, full-frame with black borders, etc) in a 35mm format to lose.

    But this goes to tie with the ideas from the micro-brewery thread by Sean, which is to downsize the scale of mass production to a garage size and distribute to the selected smaller market.

    I really think supporting remaining large manufacturers by buying their still-available products at this point, but it's like giving cash donations to large charity organizations and wondering how exactly you money was spent by them later on. You will never get a clear and better answer to yourself unless you actually do what you need to do to make a better change. We can do our best, but we have not quite started doing it yet.

  7. #57
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley View Post
    Laugh if you will Mr. Ham, but unless you can put some emulsion behind that Nikkor glass, your cold dead hands are just that; cold and dead. No one gives a hoot about the glass used to make the photo. So unless you start engaging your brain, that prized glass is going to become just another favored paper weight.

    FWIW, I'm sitting here contemplating entering a photo in the Silver contest made with PE's emulsion and hand coated on a non-traditional paper. In fact, I think you just convinced me to do it. Thanks for the idea!
    Frankly, what I am saying is that I'm not going to let that glass just sit on the shelf.

    If it comes to it - I will put it in front of a sensor!

    I don't want to do that (at least not exclusively) but I'm not going let it go to waste either.

    Remember, film camera bodies can also become favored paper weights and PE has told us that he thinks 35mm is dead. That doesn't mean the glass is.

    I wish you luck in your endeavor but, as to the premise posited in the OP, I don't think that you coating your own plates is going to somehow preserve the film art for future generations.

    And I also think that if 35mm film is dead then larger formats are in the same coffin. How much MF and LF film demand is there after all? Do you really think that MF and LF film demand alone is enough to keep the industry alive?

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley View Post
    Laugh if you will Mr. Ham, but unless you can put some emulsion behind that Nikkor glass, your cold dead hands are just that; cold and dead. No one gives a hoot about the glass used to make the photo. So unless you start engaging your brain, that prized glass is going to become just another favored paper weight.

    FWIW, I'm sitting here contemplating entering a photo in the Silver contest made with PE's emulsion and hand coated on a non-traditional paper. In fact, I think you just convinced me to do it. Thanks for the idea!
    Okay, let's not do a "who has more chance to survive and who is not" type of cat fight. We don't know. But let's keep all the available information at the center so everyone can share and start developing more ideas from there.

    I'm a 35mm B&W film shooter and wet darkroom printer, and it looks like I belong to a sub-devided section of APUG when it comes down to film-and- paper-coating discussions, but that's NOT a significant point to make.

    I think the accessibilty is the key as some have already pointed out earlier, and I belive that if we can bring more popular formats back to the market, the market will live and start to create both demand and supply of good traditional film and paper again.
    Last edited by firecracker; 01-19-2007 at 09:45 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #59
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reellis67 View Post
    Could not the advent of film have had this same level of impact (or at least something that comes close) on the glass plate world? It seems that many of the same arguments could be made between plates and film as are made with film and d****l, and look how long it tool glass plates to go away...

    - Randy
    The introduction of film made photography accessible to everyone and created a "mass market". Film didn't completely eliminate glass plate photography because there wasn't much of a market to eliminate. Glass plate photography was a specialist activity practiced by professionals. George Eastman (and his counterparts in Europe) made "light writing" available to everyone.

  10. #60
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    Gentlemen;

    In research, Kodak found it difficult to make 35mm perfed film! We hand and machine coated 35mm unperfed, 120 and 4x5. We machine coated up to 11x14, but NO PERFS.

    So, until someone designs a good hand coater for 35mm and a perfing machine, I doubt if there is any chance of making good 35mm hand coated films. The technology for doing it in a simple darkroom is not there yet. Oh, and the length of a 35mm roll is a problem as well and also slitting to 35mm.

    I can make 120 and 4x5 and higher sizes. Thats it. The 120 is questionalble, as I have not tested it. I will need the special thin support and I can't get it. I can only get the 7 mil estar used in 4x5 and other sheet films.

    I spent the evening doing 4x5 film and plate trial coatings with 3 new film and plate blades just to learn the process anew. Can anyone else say otherwise? If you know more than I do, please speak up!!!!

    I DO NOT WANT TO RELEGATE ANYONE TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY. However, it may take place in spite of me. Believe me, you will not like anything I coat in 35mm nor will you come up with much better.

    I want better than digital for the future. But all of us have limitations. We may need an emulsion preservation conference, but notes to fellow emulsion makers (not Kodak - they respond with indifference) are either unanswered or answered with vituperation. What is wrong with people? Why are the best emulsion makers here unwilling to respond in a civil manner?

    PE



 

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