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  1. #71
    AgX
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    Dear PE

    You seem to cling to the term `Fischer type couplers´, so this man gets his well deserved merits, even by mistake. (I shall dive into my private library and have a look at the Mees & Jones...).
    And, more important, it is interesting that, on your expertise, it seems that there is still some room for new concepts even within chromogenic processes!


    Back to history. In your initial posting with reference to those couplers you referred to clones of Agfacolor which came up due to the enforced release of Agfa techniques in 1945. There seem to have been independent approaches before:
    -) in 1942 Ferrania marketed a substantial chromogenic film without any assistence of Agfa's R&D and no report of patents infringement. (Though, as processing in Agfacolor chemistry resulted in some result, it seems close to Agfa)
    -) There is a hint at a third company also going the Agfa way before '45. I shall do some archive research on that.


    bye

  2. #72
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    It was Mees and James.

    Also, the 'clones' arose during and before the war due to transfer of Agfa technology to Konishiroku and to Fuji. The original 'clone' was made by Konica during the war, but they were bombed into rubble being next to the Hachioji steel mills, and so production was transferred to Fuji.

    After the war, both companies made a Kodachrome like film, and Agfacolor and Agfachrome type films. I have samples of all of them including processing instructions and kits for the Konica films.

    I have discussed this extensively with Agfa, Konica and Fuji people.

    Within the industry and at all conferences I attended and in all communications, the Agfa type sulfonic acid or carboxylic acid couplers were referred to as "Fischer type couplers" or "Fisher couplers". The oil soluable couplers were known as Kodacolor couplers.

    Kodak replicated most Agfa products, and I have tested the Agfa color paper counterpart made in the Kodak labs. I have also tested the Agfa color developing agent that they used which had a sulfonic acid group on it as well. It was used in (IIRC) their Type VI and Type VII papers in the mid 60s. After that they converted to the oil soluable couplers as the Kodak patents were expiring. Fuji and Konica converted in the mid 80s, although they did have a paper with oil soluable couplers in the mid 70s.

    BTW, regarding the question of sharpness and grain with Fischer couplers, it may or may not be better, but one thing is sure.... The image stability of all Fischer type couplers that I ever tested were far inferior to that of similar couplers dissolved in oil droplets.

    PE

  3. #73
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    A further thought on grain and sharpness of films using Fisher type couplers.

    Since they tend to form micellular structures in gelatin, the dyes that form do so in small 'blobs' which look similar to dyes formed from Kodacolor couplers when viewed in photomicrographs. The major difference is that the micelles are somewhat irregular and can be polydisperse, but the dyes in oil drops are regular and monodisperse (all just about the same size).

    In the long run, I think it would be a draw between the two.

    Polymeric couplers form dye deposits on the molecular level. They therefore have no visible structure in photomicrographs.

    PE

  4. #74
    AgX
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    Many Thanks !

    Your detailed information is most appreciated!
    In one glance I’ve got information about dye clouds structures, I don’t know how much reading papers it would have taken to get those, if all.

    `Mees and James´… I have been intensively reading my copy just last month. But somehow I’ve got problems with the second author’s name… Realized it but this tricky system did not allow me correcting my error.

    Konica/Fuji copying Agfacolor before 1945… I only knew about the “Sakura Natural Color Film” which is reported to be the Kodachrome copy. Very interesting.
    (In the literature originating from Wolfen and looking back into time only the “Oriental Color” from 1952 is stated.)

    I shall inform about those couplers with polymeric backbone.


    bye from Old Europe

  5. #75

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    One source I have read offered the titbit that the Agfa colour film was unique in that it served in both the Pacific and European Theatres of war on both sides through Agfa proper(German),Ansco(American) and Sakura(Japanese).
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowanw View Post
    One source I have read offered the titbit that the Agfa colour film was unique in that it served in both the Pacific and European Theatres of war on both sides through Agfa proper(German),Ansco(American) and Sakura(Japanese).
    Bill
    Dear Bill,

    Was there a US coating plant for Agfacolor via Agfa/Ansco?

    Not arguing: just ignorant.

    Cheers,

    R.

  7. #77
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    The Agfa (Agfa Ansco) plant in Binghamton NY produced an Agfa color film and Paper (I think). The paper was not in production at the start of the war AFAIK though and only reversal materials may have been made in the US.

    At the start of the war, the Agfa plant was taken over from Agfa (nationalized) and run by the US government until the 60s. Germans working there whent it was nationalized were given the option of returning to Germany or remaining in the US. There were a bit of both types - some left and some stayed.

    The plant continued as Ansco and produced reversal color film (Anscochrome) and a reversal color paper (Printon) until they closed the doors. In the early 60s, they attempted to produce a negative color paper. I have samples printed on it. It was reintroduced in the late 60s or early 70s and was the subject of the Ansco law suit against Kodak. They claimed that their paper was incompatible with the new 3 solution Ektaprint 3 process as they had designed it for the Ektaprint C or P122 process, and won the suit. (In fact, it worked just fine in the process with a minor tweak to the development, but they won anyhow, Kodak being the big meany....)

    PE

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    Dear PE,

    Sorry; I should have said during WW2. I have some old Anscochromes from the late 40s/early 50s -- and very nasty they are!

    Cheers,

    R.

  9. #79
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    Roger, AFAIK, there was production of color materials at the plant in the US before the war, but it did not use the same formulas as the German plant. OTOH, the only real new item we learned from Agfa records after the war was about gold sensitization. I do know that some materials were only imported from Germany.

    We also learned the precise contents of some solutions that were shipped from Germany with only a coded designation and which became unavailable at the start of the war. The US plant was forced to improvise regarding those itmes, I suppose.

    All of the chemicals in use by Agfa were known to Kodak except for gold.

    At this point, no one really knows what went on at Agfa-Ansco before the war as most of the chief scientists and managers elected to return to Germany IIRC.

    PE

  10. #80
    AgX
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    In May 1935 it was decided at Agfa to go the neg/pos way as one was afraid Mannes&Godowsky patents could block the reversal way. But in October Schneider decided himself to turn to a reversal film instead in order to yield showable results in shorter time. But in ’36 the work on a pos/neg system was revived and the photopaper plant in Leverkusen involved in the development. In 1938 the negativ (cine) film went into production. Aside from the success of this system there was a patent quarrel between Kodak and IG Farben, where Agfa was part of, on the neg/pos issue which was only settled in 1943!! (the business goes on). It took until 1942 for the Leverkusen plant to start small scale production of the color paper. Though there were experimental papers used before to be pinned in cinema showcases of which Agfa was glad if they yielded color for 14 days.

    ANSCO started with a color film only in 1942

    On the Ferrania issue: Agfacolor had no patent protection Italy in ’42.

    (Aside: Schneider while working in Switzerland for Tellko in 1946 was going to be taken by Edgerton to an interrogation but refused to accompany him out of fear to be taken by him by force to Germany [US Occupational Zone].)

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