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  1. #31
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Remember that many of these smaller companies did not have to do R&D on Dektol, HC110, XTOL, Liquid Fix et. Kodak published formulas for many of these and now they are being produced by others with no overhead for the R&D that made them possible.
    Let's not forget D-76, the film developer that changed the face of photography forever!

    Ron, to add to the other comments, I think you're probably the most well strategically placed person for APUG and sadly someone who does not get enough credit for his knowledge. Wasn't it Hurter and Driffield who concluded that despite the knowledge they were able to gather scientifically about photography, photographers still preferred listening to snake oilers and go on with their heuristics?

    I would also be very keen to know what Mr Perez had to say about film, if that is not classified information.

    And I think you're the final word on stop baths!
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  2. #32
    FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr82bart View Post
    You guys slay me. Too funny.

    Explain to me why the head or any executives of a huge multinational like Kodak should even bother with us? We're 18,000 (max-possible) film users out of tens of millions, maybe less than 1% of all potential film users - and hostile to Kodak at that. So why would they feel welcome here?

    Reading all these posts, I certainly could see why they would think APUG is a place for anti-Kodak zealots.
    The title of the thread is "Kodak Clarification". Unfortunately the quote from Kodak is (IMO) not a clarification of anything; it appears to be simply spin. (As a UK resident I'm an expert in this through a process of total immersion courtesy of our government! :rolleyes: )

    Whether the statement "correctly attributed" to Perez is taken in or out of context, "film is dead" is sort of hard to misinterpret.

    I have absolutely no ill-will towards Kodak. Their contribution to traditional photography is vast and their remaining products are still amongst the best in the world. I have the greatest respect for their craftsmen, past and present, and the knowledge that they hold.

    I'm going to have a bash at breaking this email down statement by statement to analyse its meaning properly. In doing so without seeing the email(s) to which it responded I'm going to have to make the following assumptions -

    • The initial emails expressed concern and quoted Perez's "film is dead" statement.


    "I was asked to respond to your inquiry, since I am familiar with the issues you raise and would make a couple of key points." Intro - no data

    First Antonio Perez has heard from many people like you who are loyal film photographers -- both consumers and professionals. The "film is dead" comment provoked several emails.

    Kodak continues to offer the widest lineup of films and we continue to invest in the business -- as evidenced by the fact that a number of products carry "new and improved" labels because of our investment. We will continue to respond to the market and that market remains an attractive one, Known historical background information plus a note that Kodak has recently introduced new developments in traditional technologies plus a note that some areas of Kodak are aware that they're still making profit out of the traditional marketplace.

    even as we reduce costs and cut back production in the face of the reality of lower demand for our traditional products. A realistic assessment (IMO), and a hard fact that the entire industry is facing.

    Regarding the statement correctly attributed to Mr. Perez, it obviously has been taken out of context. Accurate. The words "film is dead" have been stated repeatedly without reference to the rest of the article/presentation. (I'm still at a loss to see how they could be misinterpreted, though...)

    Today, in fact, Kodak is a heavily digital company, as revenues in these businesses, both consumer and professional, now surpass our traditional photo business. Background info. Nothing new AFAICS, YMMV.

    But in many ways, the businesses are also complementary and do work closely together. Ermmm... I can't see how, but then I'm not an expert. It looks like spin to me but other members may be able to clarify.

    Mr. Perez was simply reflecting the need to move into businesses that are growing, and we have obviously been successful in doing so. Now that's spin!

    Again, many thanks for your comments. You can be assured that we all this feedback from consumers very seriously. ...aaaaand my spinometer just exploded! Fair enough, though. I'd expect a similar sign-off from any marketing dept.

    Like I said, no offence intended Art, but IMO it's not really a clarification.
    Last edited by FrankB; 01-25-2007 at 04:54 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

  3. #33
    gr82bart's Avatar
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    Oh brother. Too funny.

    Regards, Art.
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

  4. #34
    FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr82bart View Post
    Oh brother. Too funny.
    Glad I could provide some amusement. :rolleyes:

    (Just a thought - It's a shame we don't have smiley-equivalents for hand gestures, isn't it?!)
    Last edited by FrankB; 01-25-2007 at 05:29 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

  5. #35
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Thanks for the comments guys.

    Basically, Kodak 'grew up' dealing not with people but with other big companies which were their customers. You went to a small film store, but they dealt with the wholesaler who dealt with Kodak.

    In this new market, Kodak has not yet learned to respond to individuals, and what is worse, due to shrinkage of staff, fewer people have the time to attend to the customers.

    Kodak knows how to deal with Walmart and Ritz and places like that though.

    PE
    Sorry to say this, but I don't entirely agree. No matter which part of the world I have been in I have found the local EK customer service and technical support to be second to none. You can call EK up, ask a technical question, then be connected to someone who can answer it, and who is interested in helping you.

    Which is more important: good PR or good technical support?

    Which other company was handing out two free rolls of film to every person that came to their stand at Photo Plus? Which other company has mailed four rolls of free film to goodness knows how many thousand people?

    Best,
    Helen

  6. #36
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    Let's not forget D-76, the film developer that changed the face of photography forever!

    Ron, to add to the other comments, I think you're probably the most well strategically placed person for APUG and sadly someone who does not get enough credit for his knowledge. Wasn't it Hurter and Driffield who concluded that despite the knowledge they were able to gather scientifically about photography, photographers still preferred listening to snake oilers and go on with their heuristics?

    I would also be very keen to know what Mr Perez had to say about film, if that is not classified information.

    And I think you're the final word on stop baths!
    Michel;

    IDK if H&D said that, but I do believe it to be true even today considering all of the myths that I have seen here and elsewhere. A lot of people seem to want to talk about the 'science' of photography but know little of it at all. In fact, to photo engineers, the zone system is the H&D system for dummies (If you will forgive me for that wisecrack).

    As for Perez, I asked him about the reason behind Kodak leaving B&W paper behind and he said "Ron, Kodak was hemmoraging money out of the B&W paper area and we just could not stay in it!" He added "I have personally answered a number of messages from concerned customers and tried to let them know we share their concern, but in a company this large, I simply cannot answer each and every message or I would never get my work done".

    I think it was an honest and sincere answer for our group, but one which did not contain any classified information. My comments above, while in quotes, only refelect the degree to which I remember his actual words. I think I have reproduced them well enough though.

    There are other reasons as well, but I really don't want to get into them here. They relate in no way to APUG or the users of products, but more to technical matters.

    As for the quote, it was not the 'film is dead' quote but rather, I think, the one that I posted from the D&C earlier this week by Perez.

    PE

  7. #37
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen B View Post
    Sorry to say this, but I don't entirely agree. No matter which part of the world I have been in I have found the local EK customer service and technical support to be second to none. You can call EK up, ask a technical question, then be connected to someone who can answer it, and who is interested in helping you.

    Which is more important: good PR or good technical support?

    Which other company was handing out two free rolls of film to every person that came to their stand at Photo Plus? Which other company has mailed four rolls of free film to goodness knows how many thousand people?

    Best,
    Helen
    Helen;

    I agree.

    Please don't confuse technical support or customer service with sales. I was referring to sales in that response of mine.

    The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

    Kodak is like a brontosaurus with two brains. The back brain gets a message of distress and begins the back legs moving in a full gallop. The front brain has no message yet. Finally, the back legs catch up with the front legs and the beast falls on its face. So, there you have my tongue in cheek visualization of Kodak. Lets hope this dinosaur does not get eaten while down and out.

    PE

  8. #38
    FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Lets hope this dinosaur does not get eaten while down and out.
    Sincerely, I agree. It would be a very great shame and a great loss to traditional photography.
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

  9. #39
    CPorter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergio caetano View Post
    Forget Kodak. They are not with us anymore. Buy from who are.

    This is a mentality that will do more harm than any possible good.

    CP

  10. #40
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    I'm figuring there are three possible outcomes with Kodak and traditional photography:

    1) They spin it off (a'la Ilford) via some form of buyout which can more profitably operate the business at reduced sales volumes.

    2) They figure out that they can keep a traditional photography division in-house as a niche market producer - so long as it meets overall investor return expectations.

    3) They run it down and then kill it.

    To me, either 1 or 2 seems preferable to 3. But I often get the feeling that many folk here have already placed their bets on #3.

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