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  1. #71
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Here is an after thought for you too.

    I have given you formulas here, and you can read "Silver Gelatin" or George Easatman's formulas, but you cannot generally make them work. It takes 'interpretation' to understand what is going on that is the art. It is like a foreign person reading very idiomatic English. It takes a bit of interpretation for full understanding.

    PE

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    PE,

    I wasn't doubting you or the "traditional" folks at Kodak's computer knowledge.

    By "computer savvy" I mean the abiilty to use the internet as a means of creating marketing "buzz". Often the most capable programmers are unable to do this because it requires a different type of skillset.

    The big joke about YouTube is that people still think it is dominated by the "home video" crowd sharing videos of stupid pet tricks. In fact, it has become a major advertising tool for what are known as "guerilla marketers".

    In all honesty, I seriously doubt the film marketers at Kodak know what "guerilla marketing" even is, must less how to use it.
    Ahhh...

    But, then, that's the reason why Google purchased YouTube, isn't it? Video is a much more compelling medium for marketing than the relatively staid content you get via Google. In effect, it was competing with Google.

    It isn't going to survive as a "guerilla marketing" tool. Google will, after all the legal issues that YouTube has been plagued by are sorted out, introduce fees for its use in this capacity. That will spell the end of its use for "guerilla marketing".
    Last edited by aldevo; 01-27-2007 at 12:00 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    Hi Helen,

    Yes, you're right about the analog guys - and perhaps that's part of the "issue" folks have here?

    Kodak is apparently a "house divided" these days.

    The new "digi kids on the block" who are running the "other side" of Kodak are hip to the web and it's marketing prowess (I figure these are the folks that were behind that YouTube video that we all became aware of here).

    Unfortunately, on "our side" are those guys in the chem labs who are still wearing white coats and thinking that everyone knows they're smart and make good products - so why bother with things like the internet.

    Can you imagine how quickly Kodak could rejuvenate film photography if it did a "street guerilla" marketing campaign including a couple of YouTube posts?
    What would make you think that film can be rejuvenated? The "sea change" has already happened.

    Whenever I show my prints to friends I invariably get asked two questions:

    a) Why are my prints so much better than theirs?
    b) Don't you think they could be even better if I switched to digital?

    The answer to both is logically related. My prints are better because the photographs are taken with greater care and personal investment. That same care and personal investment keeps me committed to analog photography. Not because of any inherent belief that the medium is superior; it's just that I take photographs to please myself and I derive greather satisfaction through analog photography.

    I concede that my preference for analog photography is subjective and I will make no attempt to put forth an argument that analog photography is inherently superior to digital photography.

    But the truth is that nearly 90% of photographs captured through either analog or digital photography are viewed once and then forgotten or discarded. That statistic strongly suggests that, at the end of the day, just not all that many people care all that much about their photographs. My belief is that the act of "taking a photograph" is just that for most people - an act of taking posession. It's a material transaction.

    And to the casual practicioner I don't think there's any doubt that digital photography IS superior. The risk of losing the picture is less, the workflow is simpler, and the investment in consumables is greatly reduced if not eliminated.

    Most people do, at the end of the day, want to take snapshots of their kids, their grandkids, their friends, etc. - if they want to take pictures at all. Let's not forget that still photography has been in a secular decline in West Europe and the Americas since the rise of video in the 80s.

    Do you really see a couple of "guerilla marketing" videos altering that? I can't.

    I read a 2004 article in one of the British photography magazines that consisted of an interview with heavyweights from Samsung, Canon, Olympus, and Nikon discussing the future of digital photography. The Samsung, Canon, and Olympus reps were adamant in their belief that:

    a) In the near-term convergence with hand-held devices (PDAs, iPods, etc.) would spell the end of the point & shoot digital camera market
    b) In the longer-term the DSLR market would likely fall prey to advances in video. In effect, high quality still modes would be developed in video cameras and this would supplant dedicated DSLRs.

    Nikon didn't agree with either point. Maybe that had more to do with the fact that they aren't in the video cam market any longer...Fat lot of good that does us, though, since outside of a Cosina-manufactured manual focus camera and a trickle of F6 production, they aren't in the analog camera business any more.

    What I take away from this is that photographic products are really just another segment of consumer electronics now - and they are do not occupy a particularly esteemed position in the food chain.

    Dedicated still photography equipment and technique is going to be "alt process" - regardless of whether it's digital or analog.
    Last edited by aldevo; 01-27-2007 at 12:07 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldevo View Post
    But the truth is that nearly 90% of photographs captured through either analog or digital photography are viewed once and then forgotten or discarded. That statistic strongly suggests that, at the end of the day, just not all that many people care all that much about their photographs. My belief is that the act of "taking a photograph" is just that for most people - an act of taking posession. It's a material transaction.
    I believe you are right, though I would suggest that the percentage of "one-views" is higher for digital than for analog, simply because the latter produces those pesky prints that have to be dealt with: stashed away in envelopes, put into albums, or stuck under a refrigerator magnet. With digital, however, I do see people whipping out their cell phones or digicams and showing off their grandchildren on the little bitty LCD screen.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by aldevo View Post
    a) In the near-term convergence with hand-held devices (PDAs, iPods, etc.) would spell the end of the point & shoot digital camera market
    b) In the longer-term the DSLR market would likely fall prey to advances in video. In effect, high quality still modes would be developed in video cameras and this would supplant dedicated DSLRs.
    ...
    Dedicated still photography equipment and technique is going to be "alt process" - regardless of whether it's digital or analog.
    I believe you are right on the first count, and the second is already happening in photojournalism. It was predicted by Dirck Halstead of "The Digital Journalist."
    Eddy McDonald
    www.fotoartes.com
    Eschew defenestration!

  5. #75

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    It's worth noting that the Grim Reaper has been busy cutting a swath through the ranks of Digital Photography makers as well...

    - Agfa got out of the business in 2002 (they sold the most digital cameras of anybody in 1997)

    OK - that won't startle anybody but...

    - Kyocera (the global name for Yashica, and a HEAVYWEIGHT in consumer electronics) got out of the business in 2005 or 2006

    - Epson is out of the digital camera business - though I think they still have inventory left to ship

    - Casio has reduced their offerings to one or two models

    - Konica Minolta is completely out of photography

    - Pentax made a strategic decision to be acquired by Hoya. Analysts in Japan have commented that Pentax's point and shoots are likely to be dropped.

    HP and Samsung (the latter choosing to focus on the opportunities afforded by the convergence with handhelds) could be next.

  6. #76

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    Just to clarify, Sony bought the lens and camera business from Konica Minolta and Samsung basically got the camera body and lens works from Pentax. These recent moves allows more D-SLRs on the market. Konica was basically dead in cameras soon after the Minolta merger; a shame when you consider the Hexar RF that was well made and poorly marketed. The big downer with Pentax is the loss of medium format, though it has yet to be seen what exactly Hoya will do with those. Some of this reminds me of Tamron buying out Bronica, and then not too many years later dumping Bronica; also what I think was poor marketing and distribution.

    At the low end camera companies competed with their own products showing up on the used market. Places like EBAY, or giant used sellers like KEH in Atlanta, offfered good condition slightly used film cameras too near low end new camera prices. This was and is a big change for all camera makers to compete against.

    Oddly enough, one of the largest camera productions has been one-time-use cameras. AGFA had a huge portion of that market prior to the collapse of AGFAPhoto. I would imagine both Fuji and Kodak were a little happy to see AGFA drop out of that realm. While photography enthusiasts might scoff or turn their noses up at such disposable cameras, they are one of the highest volume still camera film products around. I still see lots of these things in the US, even at places like grocery stores and electronics stores, though especially at little tourist type locations.

    So we are left with fewer brand new cameras. I remember just prior to college in 1994 looking at some local camera stores that had used gear. Few of these places are left, but through the internet I now have a much larger selection of gear than I could ever have found locally. This changed distribution models for new cameras.

    Just bought a bunch of AGFA APX100 through B&H Photo. I like using this film, and was glad to find it available. However, I know that buying this does not help companies still making ISO 100 B/W films, like Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, and a few others. In the short term, until the AGFA film stocks sell off, these types of purchases will impact the film companies still making new products, much like my purchase of a used camera will impact potential sales of new gear.

    Ciao!

    Gordon Moat
    A G Studio

  7. #77
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    Every now and again we get a poster who is going through the angst of realizing he/she is evolving into a digi-shooter.

    Reading his (her?) posts here, I think aldevo is at that point.

    Don't get me wrong - there are times when I too look at all that film gear on the shelf and think that the comet has already crashed and I'm just a dinosaur waiting to die off.

    And truth be told, I have a D-100 and D-70 in the mix; so there!

    But I also know that I still prefer film and that's why I hang out here.

    So, aldevo, if you've decided to move to digi - please go, and have fun. But please don't drag folks here down with a constant stream of negativistic posts.

    It isn't necessary, adds nothing positive to anyone's life and no one needs another "downer".

    Thanks.

  8. #78

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    Is it just me, or is there significant growth in the LF and ULF camera industry? Seems to be.

  9. #79
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    I don't think that still photography is at the "alt process" stage yet but I thoroughly believe that ALL analog photography is...and that owning a large format camera is a lot like owning a loom. Analog still photography used to be based on the use of tools and materials in the general consumer marketplace. It was a popular hobby at the very least (for many) and for others it was an artistic pursuit. Now, whether we fancy ourselves artists, craftspeople or hobbyists, we've more in common with people that weave cloth or throw pots than we do with people that pursue whatever the popular, contemporary hobbies may be.

    This only concerns me with regard to the availability of coated emulsions (I have no fears about chemistry, we can always make our own). I rely on APUG to provide me with good information to help keep me supplied and to provide a communal, agitating voice in favor of suppliers continuing to serve our needs. I recognize those who are responsive and my alliegance leans evermore in their directions.
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOTOTONE View Post
    Is it just me, or is there significant growth in the LF and ULF camera industry? Seems to be.
    Is there an echo in here?

    Look at my posts elsewhere on this.

    PE



 

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