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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldevo View Post
    Interesting...

    When Mirko Boddecker of Fotoimpex has discussed the possible resumption of APX emulsion production using AgfaPhoto's research "kettle", many asked how he would coat it onto film

    I don't know how emulsion "travels" (i.e. if it could be transported from one site to another), but is this approach a possibility?
    Emulsion travels quite well as long as it is refrigerated and kept dark.

    The problems arise in scaling both the making and coating operations.

    PE

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aldevo View Post
    I believe this had to do with a short-lived C-41 film that Fuji offered which was based on XP2 Super.

    Rumors abound that the present Oriental papers are nothing more than re-labeled Ilford Multigrade.
    It is interesting that Ilford states that they do not private label their own products anymore. But....of course this does not stop them from custom manufacturing products for other companies. I wonder what the difference is? Do you change the fomulas by a teeny-tiny bit?

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Emulsion travels quite well as long as it is refrigerated and kept dark.

    The problems arise in scaling both the making and coating operations.

    PE
    Well, the interesting thing here to think about regarding Agfa Gevaert is that they currently make a quite a number of panchromatic b/w films in various ISO's which they market as aerial photography films. They also manufacture Motion picture film stocks, and Microfilm stocks. They also make C-41 color negative film stocks and a Color transparency film stock, as well as offer in-house slitting and converting. The question that comes to mind is...are the b/w film stocks based on common, shared technology between Agfa/Germany and Agfa/Gevaert? Would the emulsion formulas already be close? How much of a stretch would it be to take a formula that is already similar and make it more similar?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldevo View Post
    Rumors abound that the present Oriental papers are nothing more than re-labeled Ilford Multigrade.
    Well Relabelled or not, it's at the moment a great discussion. But it's boring and unproductive. The most important is to find everyfilm you want if you like it. An exemple: in France it was impossible to buy Forte films. The only alternative was Bergger films ad some people say they are the same. I don't think so. But actually if Forte is closed, we won't be able to find either Fortepan nor BRF films. it's a pity.
    Aurelien, Analog Photographer

    the analog place to be

  5. #15
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    Not having seen the two facilities, nor the emulsion formulas, I cannot answer that.

    I can guess. Based on experience, almost anything can be done such as you propose. All it takes is time and money. Lots of both, but that depends on product and formula differences among other things. Even 'kettle geometry' will affect emulsion quality.

    Kodak had an emulsion quality group that worked world wide to compare emulsions and insure that they came out the same everywhere. They met in Rochester about twice a year, and every lab within Kodak had to pass a standard emulsion making test every year. They made an identical emulsion, coated it identically and then compared test results. Those labs that failed were 'uncertified' until the problems could be eliminated.

    Regarding the rest of your comment, since Kodak has the lion's share of motion picture film production and Fuji has just about all of the rest, I wonder how much motion picture Agfa Gevaert produces....

    My wife recently bought a disposable camera for some quick pictures. It was in a generic cardboard covering but the original camera was Kodak and the camera was "made in china". When the film came back, it was surprisingly good and I thought it was one of the Chinese / Kodak brands, but the edge markings said Agfa.

    PE

  6. #16
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    There's a lot of film used for each motion picture print, so even a small part of the market is still a large volume of film. How economic it is is something else.

    As for you wifes rebuilt "Kodak" disposable camera :-) I did some research 2 or 3 years ago into the recycling of disposable cameras. I found a company who bought the bits from the minilabs, they disassembled then rebuilt from the best parts, I guess using whatever brand of film they found to be most cost effective.

    Ian

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Regarding the rest of your comment, since Kodak has the lion's share of motion picture film production and Fuji has just about all of the rest, I wonder how much motion picture Agfa Gevaert produces....

    PE

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    There's a lot of film used for each motion picture print, so even a small part of the market is still a large volume of film. How economic it is is something else.

    Ian
    Quite true..the average 35mm theatrical print is about 12,000 ft. long. Couple that with a print order of between 100 and 2000 prints of each film, amounts to quite a bit of film. I would imagine that Agfa Gevaert has more of a market in Europe and India for its release print stock. At one time (back in the 1980's) their release print stock was more stable and had lower fade than the then-current Kodak stock. I think Kodak now surpasses them in fade-resistance. This fade resistance was more important in the circulating library type of application for educational and training films in 16mm where a print would be used for years.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Not having seen the two facilities, nor the emulsion formulas, I cannot answer that.

    I can guess. Based on experience, almost anything can be done such as you propose. All it takes is time and money. Lots of both, but that depends on product and formula differences among other things. Even 'kettle geometry' will affect emulsion quality.

    PE
    I fully understand that it would take time and financial backing. It is not a casual endeavor. The point I was making was that there ARE facilities still around that would gladly (for a price) engineer films to your requirements and coat and finish them. Some of those facilities, such as the Agfa Gevaert operations may actually have film stocks currently in production that would be applicable to pictorial photography markets, just requiring converting and packaging for that market. These products just might resemble now discontinued consumer products we have used in the past, as there is a common heritage between Agfa Gevaert and Agfa Germany.

  9. #19
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    Since prints are apt to be degraded during projection, they are built to be more expendable than the camera original. The print film has higher light stability and lower dark stability IIRC. This is to allow high intensity projection without loss of quality. But today's films are a lot better than previous films.

    That said, a huge proportion of Kodak's motion picture sale is in Vision print film (Eastman Color Print Film).

    I believe that in sheer bulk, the print film far outsells the camera original just due to the way they are used and Kodak has the highest share of both markets.

    PE

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOTOTONE View Post
    I fully understand that it would take time and financial backing. It is not a casual endeavor. The point I was making was that there ARE facilities still around that would gladly (for a price) engineer films to your requirements and coat and finish them. Some of those facilities, such as the Agfa Gevaert operations may actually have film stocks currently in production that would be applicable to pictorial photography markets, just requiring converting and packaging for that market. These products just might resemble now discontinued consumer products we have used in the past, as there is a common heritage between Agfa Gevaert and Agfa Germany.
    Yes, this is possible.

    If I were to ask someone to make Kodabromide paper for me in their facility for example, I would budget a minimum of 1 year, perhaps 2 for the project and a minimum of $100,000 US before the first usable product went out the door.

    This assumes they have a full facility and I have a workable small scale single grade formula. It also only budgets for just the one contrast grade. To do more would require more time and money. That is what I would plan on with the expectation of having a good staff and lots of luck. With a good staff and luck it would come in sooner than that.

    Everything that failed would teach, but would be nothing but scrap.

    That said, a box of 100 8x10 sheets selling for $50 / box retail would take a lot of boxes to pay for the initial investment, interest and etc.

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst is inherent in what I have said above.

    I must add that that time scale does not allow sufficient time for real world keeping exposure and processing tests, and a lot of other ancillary real-time testing. It would be going out the door with many parameters untested or partially tested.

    PE

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