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  1. #41

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    What needs to happen is that the manufacturers need to understand the artistic integrity in film. All the great Black and White art photographers still use film. The ones I have spoken to know there is no substitute for a large format negative. These are people who many of you may have heard of and are truly legends of photography. Museums and art dealers need to help our cause as they also know there is no viable substitute for the longevity of silver based photography. I can't not even begin to tell you how ridiculous I find it that Kodak is striving to become all digital. There is room for both means of photography and the companies that pioneered such traditional methods need to understand the importance of not abandoning traditon all together. If they wish to stop coming up with new emulsions, that is fine as long as they keep the time tested winners available.

  2. #42
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Daniel;

    I think that you miss the point that if the consumer analog market fluctuates wildly (as it is wont to do right at the present time), then Kodak will suffer less than Ilford and EFKE to use your example. So, a dip in low volume at Kodak may still mean some volume, but at these other two companies it might mean no volume for a period of time!

    As for chemistry as a profession, since environmental concerns seem to be attaching a stigma to being a chemist, then recovery of the profession may be a long time in coming. It is not a periodic fluctuation or faddish change, but a real stigma being imposed.

    So, FWIW, I feel that your comments are somewhat wide of or miss the points that I tried to make.

    PE

  3. #43
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    PE
    you talk about income. Do you know which complex of buildings kodak (or photographers) supports, it is "average" village: electricity, security, cleaning, property tax, repear, heating in cold area, ... It is ratio expences/income in question. Head office building alone is God take me for photography span.
    If I am shortly out of work who care. I do not pay rent for the studio, and do my painting in the break. But I do not advertise my painting, I advertise my photography. That is a difference to be "big". Anyway good luck Kodak, if it will help.

    www.Leica-R.com

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_OB View Post
    [I]
    ... Companies that do not produce color or motion picture films rely solely on production of their B&W film and paper. Market fluctuations or declines must be directly reflected in production schedules and prices.

    **** I do not get what is a problem here
    ---------------------------
    The problem in a nutshell is this. All coating machinery is designed to work at a certain volume of coating. All of this machinery is custom designed and built. There is no "off the shelf" machinery. If a company cannot sell enough product to justify running the coating machinery then they cannot offer it for sale. If a coating machine requires a 10,000 ft. roll of 42 inch wide film base on which to coat, and you cannot sell the resultant finished film within its expiry deadline then you cannot make it.

    Already some film products that used to be coated every day, are now only coated once a year, one time a year...think about it. How much further down in production can one go? That is the issue and problem with keeping marginal products on the market.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordke View Post
    What needs to happen is that the manufacturers need to understand the artistic integrity in film. All the great Black and White art photographers still use film. The ones I have spoken to know there is no substitute for a large format negative. These are people who many of you may have heard of and are truly legends of photography. Museums and art dealers need to help our cause as they also know there is no viable substitute for the longevity of silver based photography. I can't not even begin to tell you how ridiculous I find it that Kodak is striving to become all digital. There is room for both means of photography and the companies that pioneered such traditional methods need to understand the importance of not abandoning traditon all together. If they wish to stop coming up with new emulsions, that is fine as long as they keep the time tested winners available.
    Ah, but the "thing" is..that all the "great Black and White" photographers all put together cannot support the output from even one film manufacturer, because film manufacturing facilities were designed on a grand scale in a time when everyone used film, and there was enormous production capacity designed in. These same facilities often cannot be run at greatly reduced output..all the equipment is designed for enormous, huge outputs of product. Witness the demise of Forte. Good products, good sales, but too big a facility for the current markets. Perhaps Foma and Efke can survive because they are much smaller companies to start with?

  6. #46

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    I seriously don't know why if they made them in the past, they can't build new smaller, more efficient coating machines now for less output???????? I understand that it's not "that easy", however there must be ways to do this.

  7. #47
    eddym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Mercury occurs naturally at low level in the environment as mercuric oxide or other mercury salts. It is not found in the air except as dust from natural ore deposits, and never as a free metal. I was referring above to mankinds augmentation of mercury release through TV tubes, electronics and fluorescent bulbs among others. We used to use mercury salts for merthiolate and skin lotions such as calomine

    PE
    Fascinating and educational, as are all your posts, Ron. I enjoy them very much. Thank you!
    Eddy McDonald
    www.fotoartes.com
    Eschew defenestration!

  8. #48
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    Guys;

    We are talking about the literal collapse of a HUGE infrastructure due to the conversion to digital. Regardless of our personal feelings it goes on apace, as I type. The gradual buidling of this infrastructure took nearly 100 years to evolve to where it is today. It is falling a part over a period of about 10 years. About 10x faster than it was built, and it has nothing to do with Kodak's policies.

    You cannot imagine how hard it is to reduce production abruptly. I feel this is a futile argument, but I'll try again. Imagine accelerating your car smoothly to 60 mph and then applying the brakes. It works. Now imagine the same thing but ending by running into a brick wall! It HURTS. It damages the car (read infrastructure here) and it may be impossible for some to recover from the accident.

    Oh well. Some people are so fixated on B&W and color analog, that they cannot see what is going on beyond their immediate local store. Sorry all, but this situation is dire and there is no escaping it. I'm doing my best to cope with it and to supply alternatives. I would guess at 1 or 2 departures from the field of analog film and paper production within 1 - 5 years. Just an OTOMH guess though.

    PE

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordke View Post
    I seriously don't know why if they made them in the past, they can't build new smaller, more efficient coating machines now for less output???????? I understand that it's not "that easy", however there must be ways to do this.
    Many reasons:

    a) Rapid onset of the decline has destroyed the capital that could have been appropriated for this purpose
    b) Inability to show ROI prevents the capital being sought from alternate sources. Pretty much every place that manufactures film is beset with rising labor and raw material costs at the moment and film sales are still declining.
    c) In many cases, the greatest ROI opportunity for existing plant and property is cessation of production activities and selling off the land.
    d) The intellectual capital is dying off.

    I'm not sure if it's escaped people's attention but "c" is proving to be a real problem as much of Central Europe and the Developing World is undergoing an appreciation in real estate that is simply staggering - eclipsing even what the USA experienced in the late 19th century when the railroads were completed. We already know of two companies - Sterling in India and Forte in Hungary - where this played a signficant factor in the closure of operations. And this is even a concern for Ilford long-term.

    Let me put "c" in perspective. Tata Motors in India recently spent $100 million on a stamping plant on the plateau near Bangalore. This region is adding IT jobs at such a ridiculous pace, that they were able to turn the land for nearly twice that amount to a group that was planning to build roads and a large-scale commercial complex to support two new residential communities that had sprang up in the past couple years.

    As a result, that stamping plant is being raized to the ground just a couple months before it was supposed to BEGIN operations.

    Not only do these manufacturers have to make money - they have to make SICK money.
    Last edited by aldevo; 04-09-2007 at 07:24 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #50
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Mercury occurs naturally at low level in the environment as mercuric oxide or other mercury salts. It is not found in the air except as dust from natural ore deposits, and never as a free metal.
    Admittedly tangential, but are you certain?

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