Although you are correct by pointing the finger at Ilford USA to be essentially the culpret in the supply problems.* I am happy they are replaced by Winit as well, time will tell how the supply will sorted out. I am thinking that they will fall into the excact same problem as Ilford USA , since the material is so expensive and the demand so sporatic, they may find themselves not stocking enough supplys as they cannot be expected to warehouse an extremely expensive ticket item with sporatic demand.* therefore my decision to print in set yearly time frames(6 times a year for a two week window each time) I will then be able to ensure product and delivery.
My main concern is with the Swiss's total lack of Marketing of this product. Considering as all of us on this thread seemingly will agree that this product whether printed digitally or traditionally kick the pants off all other colour emulsions.
Why the Swiss are not promoting this product is beyond belief and makes it extremely hard for those of us who have commited to their product line and equipment to make it work .
I purchased my cibachrome machine from Ilford in 1994 and have kept it alive and well these past 13years. I have yet to see any significant ads for this product line in any North American Publication.
It is rumoured that on the walls in the headquarters there are hanging since the 60"s prints that show no significant fading, but if I listen to the new Whilhelm research , Cibas do not last longer then 9 years on display, well I can at least say I have 13year old cibas in great shape.
Sadly we are fighting a losing battle with this great product, and I point the finger straight at the Parent Company in Switzerland.
I am aware of a handful of labs , printing cibachrome, Hance, Lamount,Lab-ciba, Elevator and Jeff Wall in Vancouver. Who by the way may purchase more material in a year than all the commercial labs combined.
Only by a significant push in the Marketing of this product will it suppy. Sorry for the doom and gloom tone of my posts but unless something positive is done in Europe, this material will fizzle out due to lack of awareness.
Originally Posted by boyooso
..the Whilhelm info on this material is quite incorrect! This will do more damage than lack of marketing. Back in my shooting days I used to exchange work for printing time at CHROMA-COPY in NYC. CC was ILFORDs largest ciba client world wide, before they shut down all chemical processing in the late 90's.
We have Cibas on our lab wall that are 15 years old. They look as good as the day they were printed.
We send all our clients that require direct prints to Weldon or THE-LAB. We have their prints up as well, 9+ years, in the same condition.
I dont think there is enough demand for these prints for any advertising budget. It is up to the labs that supply the service to suggest use of this material. Digital shops that have the major attention put down these services as a viable print option. Other labs that could send their clients to these ciba labs do not. The labs providing quality chrome processing are as guilty in not referring the remaining ciba labs. Photographic magazines could be a big help to these remaining shops by supporting them with an article.
The less the traditional photo community supports each other, the quicker you will see services, labs and materials disappear forever. The equation is simple; selfish=death in todays traditional photo market.
I can't say I put much stock in what Whilhelm says. I have a 20+ year old Cibachrome hanging on my wall - it shows absolutely, no hint of fading.
Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
I agree that Ilford has completely neglected their 'flagship' product for many years. I can remember visiting PMA several years in a row (all my PMAs) and see virtually no mention of Ilfochrome Classic, and aboslutely no examples of it. Quite discouraging...
Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
And in the Face of the wonderfully 'archival' "FUJI CRYSTAL ARCHIVE" Ilford has done ZERO to counter the propaganda. The most I've heard (from the OLD Ilford Tech folks) was that their 'estimates were conservative and they felt the other folks 'estimates' were quite 'optimistic'. I'm sure that is truth, that is not the way the public see it and Ilford has done zero to counter the perception.
I believe since the Oji Paper has taken the rains they at least believe their is a value to the product the are selling and are beginning to give it a little promotion. Despite the recent manufacturing flaws I've seen.
FWIW, I belive many ideas/fears become self fulfilling profecies... I hope Bob Carnie's aren't, though I understand NOTHING Is forever.(except diamonds)
In the early 90's I was invited to a forum presented by Graham Nash and associates in New York showing off the first round of Iris Prints that I had seen. Sitting beside me was Whilhelm, at the time I thought it was pretty cool.
As the others went to lunch I remained in the room and spent the whole time really looking at these prints up close with no one to influence my opinion.
I concluded two things.
One was that they were absolute shit, Two within 10 years the inkjet rolling ball would completely take over the photographic market place and I was in trouble printing hand cibas and traditional fibre prints.
I imagine Whilhelm concluded
One that they were shit, Two that joining the rolling ball was going to make him a shit load of money.
The Swiss totally missed this rolling ball and I hope they come to this conclusion and help out us lone players.
I am as stubborn as I am ugly and will continue with the product as long as Elevator can see hope with it.
We just finished printing two weeks of cibachromes and put the chems to rest for another two months.
These last round of prints are spectacular and pisses me off because the easiest thing for Elevator is to forget about Ciba and move on to more practical and profitable materials , but my eyes don't lie and I know a good print when I see it.
I am sorry to bring a negative mood to this thread , but you cannot know how much personal, financial and legal grief this product has put me through.
O yea , I am a big hypocrate as I too joined the digital rolling ball in 2002, It was a matter of sink or swim , and I already said I'm ugly.
The learning curve is very large and hard for my advanced age, but I feel it is worth it. There are some very pleasant suprises with the new process which is worth discussing over on Hybrid.
Originally Posted by roteague
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Report from the Front Lines
Just did my first show of the 07 season...Ciba's kick ass!
In all modesty, on the art show circuit, it stands alone as a unique presentation of printed material.
All weekend long the other photogs drilled me about my "workflow."
Ugh...get a darkroom.
Patrons of the photographic arts can still tell the difference.
Long live Ciba!!!
I am happy to see that Ilfochrome is now available in Italy too, as promised, via fotomatica.it. Though claiming to sell B&W products only, they gave it some room following customer's pressures.
The 5 lt kit is very expensive, though, so right now I can't foresee when I'll be able to afford a set. However, I have a bunch of positives to print, and I can't say how happy I am to have Ilfochrome back again. I truly hope it's here to stay.
I know a chap who does excellent portraits. The chap is a camera.
(Tristan Tzara, 1922)