POLAROID : Reply From HARMAN technology Limited

[Photo Engineer]

It would be easier for Fuji to make it than for Ilford to make it IMHO. However, lacking the different sizes of equipment, it might be very difficult for Fuji to offer a full range without building or at least modifying existing equipment. The cutting and chopping of standard films and papers is a straightforward task, but making the pods, masks and recievers is difficult and requires specialized equipment including an assembly machine for each size and each product format.

Think about every Polaroid product you know of and then consider how different each is in every single component. Each of these must be manufactured and then assembled into one pack per product size, shape and configuration. The machine that makes SX-70 integral cannot make the other products as a simple example, as these units are totally sealed never to be peeled apart!

I have taken apart every product Polaroid makes and considered the assembly procedures and have done the same with the now vanished Kodak products including some you have never seen. I have seen the equpment and the methods of assembly and it is not a trivial task.

PE

[Alex Hawley]

Originally Posted by HerrBremerhaven

My own guess on this is that Fuji are probably happy to soon be the only peel apart film producer. It would surprise me if they made anything else, though maybe something to fit all those consumer instant cameras (600 Instant, not peel apart). They could also try selling more Instax cameras and film in North America, which are products they already make.

Gordon, somewhere in these recent Polaroid threads, there was a link to a Japanese photo supply website, where there were many more Fuji instant film offerings. There was a 600-type integral film along with 400 speed color and B&W pack films. These haven't been available yet from USA retailers, and I surmise, not available in Europe either. Fuji has also been producing ready-load sheet film products for many years. The packaging of the ready-load sheets is quite similar to the 4x5 Polaroid sheet films. As I understand it, all that is really lacking is the development mechanism and the positive sheet component. So, substiture a paper negative material, add the chemical pod and positive sheet and they would have it.

It appears likely that Ilford would have to take over the operation of the existing Polaroid plants to produce the products. Otherwise they would have to be inventing the wheel again which would be a lengthy process as Ron says.

Now this is very speculative, but bear with me for a moment. Is it possible that years ago, Ilford may have developed their own instant film technology, then shelved it because of the infamous Kodak/Polaroid lawsuit? Or, perhaps even more speculative, maybe they once produced some instant film products for the Defence Ministry? The Defence (please pardon the British spelling) linkage between the US and UK has been quite strong for many years and such collaborations have occurred.

[keithwms]

Given the patent / license relationship that was apparently already in place between Fuji and Polaroid, and Fuji's success with their instant-film products, I too do not quite see why Ilford would want a piece of this action.

However, if Fuji shows no interest in pos/neg instant films, then l would petition Ilford to consider giving us something like panatomic X (or whatever that magic stuff is in type 55/665!) in medium and large formats.

I understand the desire that many have to see manipulatable colour film back on the shelves; that strikes me as something Fuji would entertain if there is interest for it in Asia. I don't know whether that's the case. No clue.

[HerrBremerhaven]

The Fuji Instax is physically the same final print size as TimeZero (SX70) or Polaroid 600. However, the ISO is 800, and I don't know the physical pack dimensions. Fuji also makes an Instax Mini, and ACE Instant films, also integral, and ISO 800. I have never seen anything that suggests these Instant integral films would work in a Polaroid camera body. Since Fuji already make Instax cameras that can use their films, I don't see much incentive for them to produce something for the many Polaroid cameras out there. However, it might not take too much modification to change the pack construction, though there is still the matter of different ISO.

http://fujifilm.jp/personal/film/instant/index.html

Fuji already make Neopan in 4x5, which is a B/W film. What incentive might they have to alter a Quickload packet enough to make an instant film?

I think if Ilford already had something, then they would not be checking on licensing from Polaroid. The packet construction is one aspect, but then again Ilford don't make anything the would work on Kodak Readyload, nor Fuji Quickload . . . otherwise I would be buying it.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photographyy

[HerrBremerhaven]

Just a quick correction/update: Fuji Instax Mini and their related cameras, are actually very similar to the Polaroid Mio.

http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Polaroid

However, this seems to be the rare exception. Anyway, I think likely more people on APUG are interested in either peel apart Fuji Instant, or some promise of a future type 55 like film.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

[okto]

Originally Posted by HerrBremerhaven

Just a quick correction/update: Fuji Instax Mini and their related cameras, are actually very similar to the Polaroid Mio.

http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Polaroid

Instax Mini is actually EXACTLY the same: the Polaroid Mio was wholly licensed from Fuji.

[Alex Hawley]

Originally Posted by HerrBremerhaven

I think if Ilford already had something, then they would not be checking on licensing from Polaroid.

Gordon, I think they would be considered imprudent if they did not check the licensing aspect. The outcome of that lawsuit had far-reaching consequences in that area and the Court's decision still stands in effect. Basically, Kodak considered instant film technology to be public domain since they had produced Polaroid's film for many years. But Dr. Land differed. Both sides spent millions defending their positions and the judgment went Land's way. Therefore, best to err in the cautious direction.

[Photo Engineer]

Alex;

To be sure of their freedom, Kodak invented a new type of camera that used 2 mirrors (polaroid used 1), the image was viewed from the opposite side than SX-70, it used a black goo, and used a direct reversal emulsion instead of a negative emulsion. Everything was new and patentable, but the basic concept of a sealed container that developed a picture using a goo was, in the opinion of the judge, completely in Polaroids favor. Three different firms of attorneys agreed that Kodak was free of Polaroids claims, but that just shows you what they know.

It got Polaroid a big reward which appears to have helped them not at all, and it forced Kodak from instant into digital. Now this may be viewed by all as ambivalent, but it kept Kodak in business longer than otherwise.

PE

[copake_ham]

Suffice to say that Land was Polaroid and once Land was gone....

[Alex Hawley]

Originally Posted by Photo Engineer

It got Polaroid a big reward which appears to have helped them not at all, and it forced Kodak from instant into digital. Now this may be viewed by all as ambivalent, but it kept Kodak in business longer than otherwise.

Ron, I fully agree, it hurt both companies hard, and the industry as a whole.