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  1. #11
    SuzanneR's Avatar
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    Moved this thread to product availability, and as has been mentioned in numerous threads, TXP will no longer be manufactured in either 120 or 220 formats. It will still be available as a sheet film.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfclark View Post
    I think I may have misunderstood the chronology--so we've gone from TXP320 in 120 and 220, to 220 being yanked (which prompted me to go order some), to 120 also being yanked, so now no TXP320 at all.
    It's still available in sheet film, but that doesn't mean that Kodak is going to make any more of it. Unfortunately, Kodak doesn't announce product discontinuations until stocks are nearly depleted.
    Charles Hohenstein

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chazzy View Post
    It's still available in sheet film, but that doesn't mean that Kodak is going to make any more of it...
    Please share whatever it is that makes you think 320TXP in sheets is close to being discontinued. B&H appears to run out of it on a farily regular basis. Then, one or two weeks later, it's back in stock. Whenever I order some (5x7 or 8x10), it's always fresh with an expiration date more than two years distant.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if you have any solid basis for your concern. Everything I read indicates that Kodak sells more Tri-X than any other black and white film, so it ought to be the last to go.

  4. #14
    Kevin Kehler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Please share whatever it is that makes you think 320TXP in sheets is close to being discontinued. B&H appears to run out of it on a farily regular basis. Then, one or two weeks later, it's back in stock. Whenever I order some (5x7 or 8x10), it's always fresh with an expiration date more than two years distant.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if you have any solid basis for your concern. Everything I read indicates that Kodak sells more Tri-X than any other black and white film, so it ought to be the last to go.
    On another related thread here, I give my thoughts as to why Kodak would discontinue TXP. The cost of manufacturing is the lesser cost; it is the storage, promotion, shipping, returns and tracking that are a killer, not to mention the human costs of labour, benefits and training and the business costs such as depreciation and servicing debt for unsold product. Thus, if it costs $50k to manufacture a small roll which sells for $75k over a two/three year period, is $25k worth the time, effort and cost for such a realistically small market.

    To put it another way, I am unaware of a large format only film anywhere in the market. Does anyone know of a commerically available film that can only be bought in sheets and not rolls or canisters? Given the small market for sheet film, any business would likely not consider it worth the time and extra costs.
    Once a photographer is convinced that the camera can lie and that, strictly speaking, the vast majority of photographs are "camera lies," inasmuch as they tell only part of a story or tell it in a distorted form, half the battle is won. Once he has conceded that photography is not a "naturalistic" medium of rendition and that striving for "naturalism" in a photograph is futile, he can turn his attention to using a camera to make more effective pictures.

    Andreas Feininger

  5. #15

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    Sal, remember that 320TXP and Tri-X (ASA 400) are two different films with different formulations and characteristics. I think Kodak still sells a lot (relatively speaking) of Tri-X 400 in all formats.

    320TXP was intended as a pro film for use primarily in studio portraits. Since the studio pros have mostly moved to digital, the demand has probably collapsed. There's not enough of a difference between 320TXP and Tri-X 400 to attract new fans to the film.

    I agree that 320TXP in sheets is probably on death watch. Maybe there are enough LF shooters out there to keep both 320TXP and Tri-X 400 alive in the coming years, but I would be surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Please share whatever it is that makes you think 320TXP in sheets is close to being discontinued. B&H appears to run out of it on a farily regular basis. Then, one or two weeks later, it's back in stock. Whenever I order some (5x7 or 8x10), it's always fresh with an expiration date more than two years distant.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if you have any solid basis for your concern. Everything I read indicates that Kodak sells more Tri-X than any other black and white film, so it ought to be the last to go.
    Vince Donovan

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    On another related thread here, I give my thoughts as to why Kodak would discontinue TXP...
    Yes, and in that thread it was pointed out to you that the 120 and sheet films are separately manufactured on different bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    ...The cost of manufacturing is the lesser cost;...Thus, if it costs $50k to manufacture a small roll which sells for $75k over a two/three year period, is $25k worth the time, effort and cost for such a realistically small market...
    Kodak doesn't manufacture a "small roll" of any film. Your numbers appear to be pure conjecture, based, it seems, on absolutely nothing. I have no hard knowledge about how much sheet 320TXP sells, only observations based on a major retailer's stock status and the expiration dates when I purchase film. If you are privy to Kodak's 320TXP sales data, please share it. And please tell us how you got around the proprietary information disclosure restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    ...I am unaware of a large format only film anywhere in the market. Does anyone know of a commerically available film that can only be bought in sheets and not rolls or canisters? Given the small market for sheet film, any business would likely not consider it worth the time and extra costs.
    This is a red herring. Kodak is currently offering "Tri-X" in rolls and sheets. In rolls it's 400TX and in sheets it's 320TXP. No different than making any other "film" in rolls and sheets. Same double manufacturing runs, same double storage and finishing. The only difference is they use a different recipe when preparing the emulsions for each run. I'm not even certain that's a difference. TMY-2 differs between sheets and roll; is the UV absorber a separate layer simply omitted for sheets or is it mixed / not mixed in a layer that's coated on both? Ron?

    Quote Originally Posted by vdonovan View Post
    ...320TXP and Tri-X (ASA 400) are two different films with different formulations and characteristics. I think Kodak still sells a lot (relatively speaking) of Tri-X 400 in all formats...
    Yes, they're different, but Kodak calls them both "Tri-X." It offers no lower-level detail when advertising that "Tri-X is the world's best selling black and white film." Do you have specific knowledge of the sales volume distribution? I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by vdonovan View Post
    ...320TXP was intended as a pro film for use primarily in studio portraits. Since the studio pros have mostly moved to digital, the demand has probably collapsed..
    Studio pros abandoned sheet film for rolls long before they went digital. Digital probably killed 320TXP in rolls, but it seems unlikely to have had a significant impact on sheets. Most users of sheet 320TXP are amateurs and "fine art photographers."

    Quote Originally Posted by vdonovan View Post
    ...There's not enough of a difference between 320TXP and Tri-X 400 to attract new fans to the film...Maybe there are enough LF shooters out there to keep both 320TXP and Tri-X 400 alive in the coming years, but I would be surprised.
    Their common name ("Tri-X") is the real problem. 320TXP in sheets competes with other sheet films, not with roll films. In my opinion, it's sufficiently unique to have a competitive advantage in that market. I'm not certain how long Kodak will be in the film business period, but, if 320TXP disappears before Kodak's other sheet films, I'll be surprised. Disappointed perhaps. Not shocked. My freezer is filling with the stuff while it's still easily purchased in a very fresh condition. It's that special.

    I am concerned that self-fulfilling Internet prophecies will hasten the demise of products which might otherwise remain commercially viable further into the future. When it's over, it's over, but why indirectly discourage anyone from using a film by posting speculative predictions without real supporting data?

    One other thing to note. Purchasing a 10-sheet box of 8x10 film puts as much revenue in Kodak's coffers and uses as large a percentage of a master roll as buying 10 rolls in 120. The best way to keep film manufacturers in business is to move up-format. ULF anyone?

  7. #17
    Kevin Kehler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Yes, and in that thread it was pointed out to you that the 120 and sheet films are separately manufactured on different bases.
    Yes and in the same thread I admitted I had forgotten that; however, when Kodak discontinued TXP, the press release admitted TXP was less that 5% of their Tri-X roll film sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Kodak doesn't manufacture a "small roll" of any film. Your numbers appear to be pure conjecture, based, it seems, on absolutely nothing. I have no hard knowledge about how much sheet 320TXP sells, only observations based on a major retailer's stock status and the expiration dates when I purchase film. If you are privy to Kodak's 320TXP sales data, please share it. And please tell us how you got around the proprietary information disclosure restrictions. .
    You are making my point for me, Kodak does not make a small roll of film simply because it is not economical. Why would they run a huge roll of sheet film for a relatively small market, just to sit there for several years as it slowly sells. As for my numbers, yes they are conjecture and if you follow Kodak in any fashion, you know they do not release the numbers. However, given their press releases and more importantly, their actions of the past 5-7 years, it is clear that making less than X amount of profit is not sufficient and anything not generating sufficient returns is being cut, no matter how popular it is for a particular niche market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    This is a red herring. Kodak is currently offering "Tri-X" in rolls and sheets. In rolls it's 400TX and in sheets it's 320TXP. No different than making any other "film" in rolls and sheets. Same double manufacturing runs, same double storage and finishing. The only difference is they use a different recipe when preparing the emulsions for each run. I'm not even certain that's a difference. TMY-2 differs between sheets and roll; is the UV absorber a separate layer simply omitted for sheets or is it mixed / not mixed in a layer that's coated on both? Ron?
    This is not a red herring, it's the whole point! Tri-X and TXP are completely different films with different emulsions and different characteristics. TXP is not TX on a different base! You can't say the only difference is the recipe any more than you can say the only difference between cheesecake and hamburgers is the recipe and what kind of plate it is served on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Most users of sheet 320TXP are amateurs and "fine art photographers."
    Probably true since very few professional photographers shoot B&W film anymore. The vast majority of professionals are digital and even amongst the film professionals, most are in colour (Velvia and landscapes come to mind). However, to ask your question, where are you getting your facts from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    In my opinion, it's sufficiently unique to have a competitive advantage in that market. I'm not certain how long Kodak will be in the film business period, but, if 320TXP disappears before Kodak's other sheet films, I'll be surprised. Disappointed perhaps. Not shocked. My freezer is filling with the stuff while it's still easily purchased in a very fresh condition. It's that special.
    Having a unique look is no long sufficient to survive, not when shareholders want more than 2% returns. Polariod was more than unique. Yes, we think it is special too and the point of the thread was to determine what price this special stuff should sell for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    I am concerned that self-fulfilling Internet prophecies will hasten the demise of products which might otherwise remain commercially viable further into the future. When it's over, it's over, but why indirectly discourage anyone from using a film by posting speculative predictions without real supporting data?
    Nobody wants any film to be discontinued but it is what is happening. Do I hope film is here in 200 years? Yes. Do I expect it to be? Nope. Is that a self-fulfilling prophecy or just a realistic expectation of where the trend is going to be.
    Once a photographer is convinced that the camera can lie and that, strictly speaking, the vast majority of photographs are "camera lies," inasmuch as they tell only part of a story or tell it in a distorted form, half the battle is won. Once he has conceded that photography is not a "naturalistic" medium of rendition and that striving for "naturalism" in a photograph is futile, he can turn his attention to using a camera to make more effective pictures.

    Andreas Feininger

  8. #18

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    Kevin, you seem to have a desire for sheet 320TXP to become extinct sooner rather than later, and are determined to "win." I'm not posting in search of a debating triumph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    ...You are making my point for me...
    I didn't make any point for you. My point was that neither of us has numerical information from which to conclude that sheet 320TXP will be around for another X months/years. Since all this is pure conjecture, why discourage any readers who might be interested in trying this unique product from "discovering" it? The more of them who do, the more Kodak will sell, and the longer it will be available.

  9. #19

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    Boy, I didn't mean to start this kind of debate.. I am just shocked how the prices for this stuff has spiked. You would think it used sheet gold as the substrate or something.

  10. #20
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    I don't know what it is going for, but at this point, I would not pay anybody any more than its latest retail price: around $4 per roll.

    If somebody wants to pay stupid prices for a film that is still fresh and in plentiful supply from various sources, I have ten 120 rolls of it that I would sell to this somebody (expired March, 2008, but frozen)!
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-21-2010 at 07:16 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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