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  1. #241
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Look, you guys talk a lot but have little real interest or there would be more people willing and able to make hand coatings and some would be interested in system engineering. I can count on one hand, people REALLY interested in this. Most others vanish when the going gets tough. The proof of this is that out of the entire membership of APUG only about 5 people are actually making coatings on their own!

    When it takes me a week to come up with a long post on this, for just 5 people, is that worth it? It is easy to give glib answers, but hard to stick it out and finish a hard read of what is needed to make a film or paper.

    Sorry for the rant!
    Whilst I can understand your feelings on this the fact is that your posts on emulsion making are of great interest to those of us who probably will not do it themselves but also may inspire others to do something which they wouldn't have considered before.

    I'm no organic chemist (or any type of chemist) but I do have engineering and manufacturing skills and I know that if I needed to I could build small scale pieces of equipment such as an emulsion coating machine.

    Again, the likelyhood of me actually building something like this is fairly low but others in a similar position may actually get interested and do it.

    It may be that those of us with those skills but who are reluctant to actually take it a step further may only change our minds and do something when it is necessary to do it. Not the ideal situation but probably a reasonable assumption on reality.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  2. #242

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    I'd go along with Steve Smith ^^^ on this....I also get much pleasure and interest in reading many threads on APUG which are not directly relevant to my own photographic interests and activities, and may never be. Sometimes they do give me new ideas and schemes, but at the very worst it's more stimulating than watching TV or playing computer games!

    At the moment, I have no real plans (or time) for emulsion making, but will be buying PE's book...likewise I particularly enjoy reading about alternative processes,
    but no time or facilities to pursue these right now. Hopefully some day (when I retire from a very busy job?), I may be able to follow these up.

  3. #243
    Ektagraphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    A good decline? Explain how a decline can be good first before I post.

    PE
    I'm not trying to me a jerk PE, but Merrium Webster just told me that:

    Good- d (1) : of a noticeably large size or quantity : considerable

    That's where I was coming from.
    Helping to save analog photography one exposure at a time

  4. #244
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ektagraphic
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    A good decline? Explain how a decline can be good first before I post.

    PE
    I'm not trying to me a jerk PE, but Merrium Webster just told me that:

    Good- d (1) : of a noticeably large size or quantity : considerable

    That's where I was coming from.
    I think his question was tongue in cheek. Notice the smiley.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  5. #245
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ektagraphic View Post
    I'm not trying to me a jerk PE, but Merrium Webster just told me that:

    Good- d (1) : of a noticeably large size or quantity : considerable

    That's where I was coming from.
    Well, no offense was intended. I was thinking in terms of the decline in analog sales as being bad for all of us. Sorry.

    The decline in all photo products was catastrophic in about 2005 when Agfa and Ilford failed and Kodak exited B&W paper manufacturing. At that time the decline in analog product consumption was 35% in one quarter, and this was 4x the amount predicted by most industry models. Fuji was also taken aback by this sudden drop.

    Since then, the decline has been steady for all products but Neg-Pos products declined slightly less than E6 products causing E6 to now be quite a bit lower on the scale. This year, there was a very sudden decline in ECP demand which brought down the house so to speak. Production of a major product went down catastrophically causing a big cutback in the production area.

    I hope that gives you a feel for what is going on.

    PE
    Last edited by Photo Engineer; 09-10-2010 at 08:05 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #246
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. It was an honest question---I didn't mean to sound like I presumed the answer was one way or another.



    I'm not sure I understand this part. There isn't a huge warehouse full of E-6 that's been produced but not consumed, is there? Or are the slide products done in a large run that then goes out to market in a slow trickle (and what happens in between runs---is the machinery idled, or is it partly the same machinery that does C-41)?

    -NT
    See my most recent post above for more explanation.

    I have to clarify some points for you all though as my comment was vague.

    E6 has declined, but is still viable, as it can be produced and sold in a timely manner. Kodachrome by comparison could not be sold in a timely manner. A master roll might sit here in the freezer for a year, being cut on demand as customers placed orders. E6 OTOH, can be made and cut at once and sold, as sales are high enough. It is just that E6 is coated on a less regular schedule than C41 or cine products by comparison.

    For example, on a good week, cine products may run for a full day for several days, C41 takes up a day or two, and E6 products may run every other week. On that same scale, Kodachrome ran once a year! The difference is that the E6 product then sells to customers right away.

    So, my comment was quite misleading. Sorry. I hope that this clarifies things.

    PE

  7. #247
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikanon View Post
    I just turned 20 today, and since I was about 17 or 18 I have been a film photographer and seriously interested in the quantum physics and organic chemistry (technical understanding is just as important as the creative concept of an image!). I have studied very old texts from my university for the past year or so regarding photographic theory, coating and making emulsion, emulsion types and processes, as well as many other parts of photographic chemistry and sensitometry. If hand coating anything is what it takes for me to be able to shoot and print, then I will gladly become the 6th or 7th member of that group of 5 or 6. I may be young, but this is my passion, and I wont let a paradigm shift decide what makes me happy.
    Happy Birthday!

    Keep reading and if you have questions, e-mail me or send a PM. I will try to help out. Make posts in the emulsion making forum and we can mull over and discuss things there too.

    Just keep working on analog and don't let any quantum uncertainty creep in!

    Quantum entanglement would be better in this so we can all move ahead and keep analog alive.

    PE

  8. #248

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    Was this Fuji's response to the decline?

    I'm still trying to understand how Fuji's recent discontinuation of many pro color negative (C-41) films fits into this situation. It has to be related somehow, right?

  9. #249
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Yes, this fits. Compare that with Kodak's discontinuing of some E6 products. They are mutually acknowledging dominance in sales of certain items. As I indicated in an earlier post, Fuji is ahead of Kodak in E6 product sales by a slight margin and Kodak is ahead of Fuji in C41 product sales. So, they are conceding the markets to each other in a small way by discontinuing the less profitable items.

    PE

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    Exactly as I have been thinking to myself silently, which is why I've been latching on to every piece of info I can find about color separation, bromoil, dye transfer printing, and home-made coatings I can find.

    Kind of a bummer that as soon as I get the kid out of college and have a few spare bucks for myself the hobby I treasured as a kid begins to fall apart.

    So, if I have to make glass plates, then I'll make glass plates. If I have to hand coat paper, then I'll hand coat paper. If I have to boil plant stems or grind rocks to get my own color dyes, then I'll boil plant stems and grind rocks. But I've been waiting 25 years to get back into this, and no mere lack of commercial materials will stop me, regardless of what compromise must be made in the product.
    I applaud your determination! You're going to have a blast. And, I think you'll have more company than you suspect. PE counts 5 people making emulsions on APUG. I can think of more than that, and I'm pretty sure the number is growing at an increasing rate -- along with the quality of the initial efforts. I'm particularly optimistic for the younger crowd. They seem to have shed the idea that we have to compete with modern technology (at least to get started!) Preconceived notions can be the real killer of creativity and invention. Good luck, Nikanon!

    PE, the fact that practicing emulsionmakers are a small crowd right now shouldn't be seen as a deterrent to your excellent technical posts. Information landing and taking root in just one individual is as valid as a bestseller. And, again, and if the emails that I get are any indication, a lot of people are interested in emulsionmaking. They just need encouragement and information. They might not become cooks overnight. Sometimes things have to come together over time, but come together they do if there's fire in the belly.

    d
    www.thelightfarm.com



 

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