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  1. #51
    bobwysiwyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    But I bet the film consumption for making prints for distribution to theatres is a whole lot higher than the film consumption for shooting the original footage.
    -NT
    I seem to recall an article that it was in fact, the timing and distribution costs associated with getting films (copies) to theaters that was a major factor in switching to digital.
    WYSIWYG - At least that's my goal.

    Portfolio-http://apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=25518

  2. #52
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    Why should PE have to furnish all that to you? Cine film is very big at Kodak. That's a known here. How big? Look at the Kodak quarterly and yearly reports. Film has been supporting digital. That is, digital has shown losses and film has shown profit. At this time Kodak cannot survive without its film business. Digital can't even support its own R&D without film paying the bills. Cine film is the largest part of Kodak's production.
    Look at the reports and draw your own conclusions.

    And fergawd's sake, would it kill people to cut PE a little slack? He isn't just another lunk like the rest of us with little or no direct knowledge of the film business. I'm not saying never question something he says, but geez...
    Why? Because he's making statements about a declining trend without any data. Go back and read PE's opening comment. If PE wants to make the argument, then share the data that show how he reached his conclusion. I'm not seeing that and probably won't. So much for science.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Why? Because he's making statements about a declining trend without any data. Go back and read PE's opening comment. If PE wants to make the argument, then share the data that show how he reached his conclusion. I'm not seeing that and probably won't. So much for science.
    Well,
    He only state the file is suffering due to 3D, which is captured with digital cameras. So (as a scientist) no real data has to been shown, just intelligence.

    Movie X is captured digital -> digital don´t use film -> movie companies will not buy film -> companies who produces film will not sell film -> companies will not produce film (because no one is purchasing it)

    So, if you want to gather data fine, but just look how many digital 3D movies that are made, this is how the camera for avatar look:
    http://g4tv.com/videos/48219/Avatars...ra-Rig-Review/
    No film here

    to see the data about stereo, just read the movie page of your local newspaper, probably none of them where shoot with film.

    So, here PE is right, then we can discuss how Kodak and fuji will handle it (but Ilford is doing ok, i I think they dont produce movie film...)

  4. #54
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Why? Because he's making statements about a declining trend without any data. Go back and read PE's opening comment. If PE wants to make the argument, then share the data that show how he reached his conclusion. I'm not seeing that and probably won't. So much for science.
    Did you read Bob Shanebrook's book yet? It gives some figures on ECP production.

    Did you look at Kodak's own projections on ECP sales over the next few years?

    Did you see how many 3D movies there are out there? And, 99% of those are all digital! It is a gimmick to move people to digital and sell 3D. The next fad is the 3D TV. They are being sold now with 2 or 3 free 3D (childrens) movies on DVD. Avatar in 3D is due out in a few weeks.

    So, Kodak cranks out less ECP and a silent "layoff" takes place at Kodak Park. I don't have to have data when I drive by Kodak Park and see empty parking lots and see that wings of many buildings are totally dark. But, I'm surrounded by people who work or worked at Kodak, and we talk. Regularly. This story is one of the latest to emerge.

    I really don't care if you believe me or not. I can be wrong too, and the fad can vanish as well. Or the market can reverse, or this may be due to the takeover of the home theater, or.... it may be that the bedbug plague is scaring people away from theaters!

    ECP production is way down. Take my word for it. How much remains to be seen at the end of the year reports from EK. If you can read them.

    PE

  5. #55
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandholm View Post
    Well,
    He only state the file is suffering due to 3D, which is captured with digital cameras. So (as a scientist) no real data has to been shown, just intelligence.

    Movie X is captured digital -> digital don´t use film -> movie companies will not buy film -> companies who produces film will not sell film -> companies will not produce film (because no one is purchasing it)

    So, if you want to gather data fine, but just look how many digital 3D movies that are made, this is how the camera for avatar look:
    http://g4tv.com/videos/48219/Avatars...ra-Rig-Review/
    No film here

    to see the data about stereo, just read the movie page of your local newspaper, probably none of them where shoot with film.

    So, here PE is right, then we can discuss how Kodak and fuji will handle it (but Ilford is doing ok, i I think they dont produce movie film...)
    So far the only suffering due to 3D seems to be connected with schlock like "Piranha-3D." Epic!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Why? Because he's making statements about a declining trend without any data. Go back and read PE's opening comment. If PE wants to make the argument, then share the data that show how he reached his conclusion. I'm not seeing that and probably won't. So much for science.
    There's no requirement here that people furnish data to back up every statement they make when they make it. Are you going to set the rule now that if someone claims something they have to attribute it up front? If you doubt it, fine, look into it. If you can, prove him wrong. Even call bullshit on it. But if you do, you should have something to back yourself up.

    If PE says it, it's very likely to be so. He has decades of experience in the film business working for Kodak. He contributes a lot of knowledge here, knowledge combined with those decades of experience. He also lives near Kodak and knows people who still work for Kodak. It's possible that some of the information he has he can't divulge directly.

    At any rate, he's been around the business a long time and has contributed greatly to the level of discussion here. Without his input or that of someone like him, a lot of discussions would just be a bunch of somewhat informed, ill-informed or uninformed people spouting speculation and a fair amount of nonsense, without an adult in the room who really knows something. He is not an alarmist or a spreader of rumors.

    I accept his opinion as the truth as he sees it, and his perspective is generally better than mine. I consider his opinions to be informed opinions. If I were to doubt the veracity of something he said I would question it, but that's different from criticizing him because he didn't provide backing data up front. I'm sure if he had to start doing that every time he stated something, his posts would be mostly footnotes.

    I did as you suggested and went back and looked at PE's original post. I saw nothing in there that requires attribution. Why? Because it's obvious that if theaters replace film projectors with digital projectors they will no longer be projecting film. And much of Kodak's cine film production is print film-the stuff that actually gets projected.

    And contrary to your assertion, he didn't "make the argument". He made a statement. You made an argument in opposition to that statement. You said it was a bit Chicken Little-ish, and followed that with several (possibly rhetorical) questions. But I haven't seen one shred of hard evidence from you to back up your argument.


    Note: PE, I know you can defend yourself quite handily. This one just torqued me a little bit.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  7. #57
    M.A.Longmore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    There's no requirement here that people furnish data to back up every statement they make when they make it. Are you going to set the rule now that if someone claims something they have to attribute it up front? If you doubt it, fine, look into it. If you can, prove him wrong. Even call bullshit on it. But if you do, you should have something to back yourself up.


    Note: PE, I know you can defend yourself quite handily. This one just torqued me a little bit.
    .
    Thank You LXDude !


    Ron
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  8. #58
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    There's no requirement here that people furnish data to back up every statement they make when they make it. Are you going to set the rule now that if someone claims something they have to attribute it up front? If you doubt it, fine, look into it. If you can, prove him wrong. Even call bullshit on it. But if you do, you should have something to back yourself up.

    If PE says it, it's very likely to be so. He has decades of experience in the film business working for Kodak. He contributes a lot of knowledge here, knowledge combined with those decades of experience. He also lives near Kodak and knows people who still work for Kodak. It's possible that some of the information he has he can't divulge directly.

    At any rate, he's been around the business a long time and has contributed greatly to the level of discussion here. Without his input or that of someone like him, a lot of discussions would just be a bunch of somewhat informed, ill-informed or uninformed people spouting speculation and a fair amount of nonsense, without an adult in the room who really knows something. He is not an alarmist or a spreader of rumors.

    I accept his opinion as the truth as he sees it, and his perspective is generally better than mine. I consider his opinions to be informed opinions. If I were to doubt the veracity of something he said I would question it, but that's different from criticizing him because he didn't provide backing data up front. I'm sure if he had to start doing that every time he stated something, his posts would be mostly footnotes.

    I did as you suggested and went back and looked at PE's original post. I saw nothing in there that requires attribution. Why? Because it's obvious that if theaters replace film projectors with digital projectors they will no longer be projecting film. And much of Kodak's cine film production is print film-the stuff that actually gets projected.

    And contrary to your assertion, he didn't "make the argument". He made a statement. You made an argument in opposition to that statement. You said it was a bit Chicken Little-ish, and followed that with several (possibly rhetorical) questions. But I haven't seen one shred of hard evidence from you to back up your argument.


    Note: PE, I know you can defend yourself quite handily. This one just torqued me a little bit.
    Seems to be considerable confusion here regarding evidence, data, and verifiable sources that PE can't/won't share. If you or anyone else doesn't see an evidentiary problem, then fine by me.

  9. #59
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    CGW;

    I think that you can see that if I divulge exact figures and names, I will not only lose sources, but sources might have problems with EK. Even I have been admonished by EK on one occasion regarding a post, but generally they are somewhat in favor of my work as far as I can tell.

    My posts are not always 100% accurate, but I try the best I can to be as accurate as possible. I hope that my past history speaks for itself. And, as for my ability to gain contact with EK information, I assure you that I have reached the highest levels. I questioned Tony Perez personally about B&W paper cancellation back when it took place, and right now, I would talk to him a bit about canceling sheet color Endura among other things!

    But, facts are facts and are common knowledge here. If you take the references I gave you to heart and read them instead of arguing about my post, you would have a lot better understanding of the situation. It seems to me you would rather keep questioning me than look at some of that reference material.

    Why?

    PE

  10. #60
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    Well said and 100% correct lxdude. I, for one, trust and take what Ron has to say as informed truth and I certainly appeciate his knowledge and contribution the the forum.



 

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