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  1. #81
    IloveTLRs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bblhed View Post
    I would not like to see a hostile takeover of Kodak, unless that takeover is by APUG users.
    Judging by previous threads about Kodak and the wrath and acrimony therein, I think a takeover by APUG users would nosedive the company into the ground
    Those who know, shoot film

  2. #82
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    From my POV, both Steve and Ken have valid observations. We don't know where Kodak stock is going and we don't know where TIP is going either. But, from a purely analog POV, the TIP product is not worthy of any other existing analog film company IMHO. There is no excuse. If I had the time and energy, I could probably hand coat a product better than theirs in my DR! I have hand coated conventional products way better than any of theirs.

    To go on in this vein, much of Kodak's original integral and peel apart products looked as bad or worse, but they were never sold. They were scrapped! To me, it is the equivalent of a drug company trying an experimental drug on people knowing that there are going to be defects!

    Yeah, sure, there are those who have convinced themselves that this is "art", but look at some of the art today!

    PE

  3. #83
    IloveTLRs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    Who buys Polaroid now ? Old followers or young fellows ?
    I would say younger people, mostly. Flickr has lots of Polaroid users, and instant film users in general.
    Those who know, shoot film

  4. #84
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    But, from a purely analog POV, the TIP product is not worthy of any other existing analog film company IMHO.
    But again, and with respect, the issue is not one of product quality. The issue is how to sell more product, regardless of its quality. And in this regard, Kodak could benefit enormously by looking at how TIP successfully does that.

    (If, of course, Kodak's long-term intention is to continue selling film...)

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    But again, and with respect, the issue is not one of product quality. The issue is how to sell more product, regardless of its quality. And in this regard, Kodak could benefit enormously by looking at how TIP successfully does that.

    (If, of course, Kodak's long-term intention is to continue selling film...)

    Ken

    ken

    the elephant standing in the room is that they don't indent on selling film much longer.
    i am surprised that they have continued to do r+d to improve and make more excellent products as they have done,
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.

  6. #86
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    ken

    the elephant standing in the room is that they don't indent on selling film much longer.
    i am surprised that they have continued to do r+d to improve and make more excellent products as they have done,
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.
    I know, John.

    This has been the inferred point of most of my Kodak-related posts for a long time. But it's not something that can be safely mentioned around here as one's explicit point of view. The sharks will devour you. This point of view must be implicitly - and subtly - made.

    Mr. Perez has already told us exactly where he's going. And he's going there at the behest of Kodak's board of directors. And there is no turning back...

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  7. #87
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    US Goverment always cares about the feasible companies , if I am not wrong. Last decision will not be the consumers or Kodak but the State. Improvement on electronics , ccds , softwares more important for the arm products. Everyone learned what can it be learned from emulsions , film chemistry field.

    I think real problem is to smooth the fall from the eyes like GMC.

    I read somewhere saying dont produce anything you can buy from the others. Fuji will be happy to fill the color market and they will close the business may be 10 years later also.

  8. #88
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Mr. Perez has already told us exactly where he's going. And he's going there at the behest of Kodak's board of directors. And there is no turning back...
    Exactly, Perez said he would use analog as a cash cow to build digitally related businesses. That is what he did. I was working at Kodak then and we strongly objected. [Like they listened to us!] Yes, he has made some progress in digital, but IMNSHO too much was wasted in the stink-jet printers, as an example. So while film et al was being drained of its life blood by the digital vampires, less could have been drained and used instead for analog development. Now that effort which could have helped analog has been lost and it may be too late to recover from the Perez fiascoes.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.
    Have you guys not noticed the (very successful in my mind) viral marketing for Portra 400 and Ektar 100? Those films were placed with reviewers on the internet who gave these two products rave reviews which drummed up a lot of interest. At least that's my impression reading threads on other forums - people who never spoke highly of Portra 400NC/VC *love* the new 400, and Ektar seems to be very very popular with a lot of folk.

    Maybe Kodak isn't advertising in photo magazines anymore, but really, who even reads them nowadays? I do think they could increase their marketing, but just because they didn't have a commercial in the Superbowl doesn't mean they aren't marketing it at all.

    Several years ago, when the -2 versions of Portra came out, anyone who was interesting in trying them just had to send a request to Kodak and they received a nice tube in the mail with 4 rolls of film to try out.

    But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they aren't advertising these films at all. How do you guys think they should be spending their advertising money? It's easy to say, 'They don't advertise.' How DO you advertise film nowadays?

  10. #90
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    Exactly, Perez said he would use analog as a cash cow to build digitally related businesses. That is what he did. I was working at Kodak then and we strongly objected. [Like they listened to us!] Yes, he has made some progress in digital, but IMNSHO too much was wasted in the stink-jet printers, as an example. So while film et al was being drained of its life blood by the digital vampires, less could have been drained and used instead for analog development. Now that effort which could have helped analog has been lost and it may be too late to recover from the Perez fiascoes.
    Steve,

    I take you at your word regarding your ignored internal objections, and agree completely with the rest. Kodak was a magnificent company. A world leading example of the best in innovation and engineering. Their remaining film product lines are so good it almost hurts.

    You have no idea how much I would have liked to see Kodak emerge from the digital revolution as the world leader in overall imaging, both digital- and film-based. The former in the majority for speed and convenience, the latter in the minority for the ultimate in quality. And both effectively marketed that way.

    But this was not the "vision" to be. It was all digital, or nothing at all. And more and more the financial press seems to be anticipating the latter.

    I could have accepted film product line rationalization down to a much smaller set of offerings, IF Kodak would have committed to those remaining film offerings for the long-term. But at this late stage Kodak won't - and can't - do that.

    It's not the fear of losing more Kodak film types in the long term that puts me off. It's the fear of losing ALL Kodak film types in the short term that forced me to switch to another manufacturer.

    And that's when I learned there is indeed life after Kodak.

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

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