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  1. #81
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    But, from a purely analog POV, the TIP product is not worthy of any other existing analog film company IMHO.
    But again, and with respect, the issue is not one of product quality. The issue is how to sell more product, regardless of its quality. And in this regard, Kodak could benefit enormously by looking at how TIP successfully does that.

    (If, of course, Kodak's long-term intention is to continue selling film...)

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  2. #82
    jnanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    But again, and with respect, the issue is not one of product quality. The issue is how to sell more product, regardless of its quality. And in this regard, Kodak could benefit enormously by looking at how TIP successfully does that.

    (If, of course, Kodak's long-term intention is to continue selling film...)

    Ken

    ken

    the elephant standing in the room is that they don't indent on selling film much longer.
    i am surprised that they have continued to do r+d to improve and make more excellent products as they have done,
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.

  3. #83
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    ken

    the elephant standing in the room is that they don't indent on selling film much longer.
    i am surprised that they have continued to do r+d to improve and make more excellent products as they have done,
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.
    I know, John.

    This has been the inferred point of most of my Kodak-related posts for a long time. But it's not something that can be safely mentioned around here as one's explicit point of view. The sharks will devour you. This point of view must be implicitly - and subtly - made.

    Mr. Perez has already told us exactly where he's going. And he's going there at the behest of Kodak's board of directors. And there is no turning back...

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  4. #84
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    US Goverment always cares about the feasible companies , if I am not wrong. Last decision will not be the consumers or Kodak but the State. Improvement on electronics , ccds , softwares more important for the arm products. Everyone learned what can it be learned from emulsions , film chemistry field.

    I think real problem is to smooth the fall from the eyes like GMC.

    I read somewhere saying dont produce anything you can buy from the others. Fuji will be happy to fill the color market and they will close the business may be 10 years later also.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    seeing they don't bother to advertise any of them.
    Have you guys not noticed the (very successful in my mind) viral marketing for Portra 400 and Ektar 100? Those films were placed with reviewers on the internet who gave these two products rave reviews which drummed up a lot of interest. At least that's my impression reading threads on other forums - people who never spoke highly of Portra 400NC/VC *love* the new 400, and Ektar seems to be very very popular with a lot of folk.

    Maybe Kodak isn't advertising in photo magazines anymore, but really, who even reads them nowadays? I do think they could increase their marketing, but just because they didn't have a commercial in the Superbowl doesn't mean they aren't marketing it at all.

    Several years ago, when the -2 versions of Portra came out, anyone who was interesting in trying them just had to send a request to Kodak and they received a nice tube in the mail with 4 rolls of film to try out.

    But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they aren't advertising these films at all. How do you guys think they should be spending their advertising money? It's easy to say, 'They don't advertise.' How DO you advertise film nowadays?

  6. #86
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    Exactly, Perez said he would use analog as a cash cow to build digitally related businesses. That is what he did. I was working at Kodak then and we strongly objected. [Like they listened to us!] Yes, he has made some progress in digital, but IMNSHO too much was wasted in the stink-jet printers, as an example. So while film et al was being drained of its life blood by the digital vampires, less could have been drained and used instead for analog development. Now that effort which could have helped analog has been lost and it may be too late to recover from the Perez fiascoes.
    Steve,

    I take you at your word regarding your ignored internal objections, and agree completely with the rest. Kodak was a magnificent company. A world leading example of the best in innovation and engineering. Their remaining film product lines are so good it almost hurts.

    You have no idea how much I would have liked to see Kodak emerge from the digital revolution as the world leader in overall imaging, both digital- and film-based. The former in the majority for speed and convenience, the latter in the minority for the ultimate in quality. And both effectively marketed that way.

    But this was not the "vision" to be. It was all digital, or nothing at all. And more and more the financial press seems to be anticipating the latter.

    I could have accepted film product line rationalization down to a much smaller set of offerings, IF Kodak would have committed to those remaining film offerings for the long-term. But at this late stage Kodak won't - and can't - do that.

    It's not the fear of losing more Kodak film types in the long term that puts me off. It's the fear of losing ALL Kodak film types in the short term that forced me to switch to another manufacturer.

    And that's when I learned there is indeed life after Kodak.

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  7. #87
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gray View Post
    Have you guys not noticed the (very successful in my mind) viral marketing for Portra 400 and Ektar 100? Those films were placed with reviewers on the internet who gave these two products rave reviews which drummed up a lot of interest.

    [...]

    How do you guys think they should be spending their advertising money? It's easy to say, 'They don't advertise.' How DO you advertise film nowadays?
    As I said earlier, I think Kodak's film marketing people would do well to observe The Impossible Project marketing model. Not to target the same demographic. But instead maybe to adapt some of the techniques to targeting Kodak's different demographic.*

    For me personally, I think it's interesting that I haven't seen much of anything related to Portra or Ektar online. But I have read a great deal about TIP.

    One of their best techniques is to establish a "partnership" with individual customers, making them feel as if both the customer and TIP have embarked on some great adventure together by experimenting with TIP instant films. And that it's just you and TIP together against the world. Everyone else out there really has no clue how cool the two of us really are.

    Corny? You bet. But it seems to sell a lot of product for TIP. Would it work for Kodak? Probably not. Could it be adapted in some way for Kodak to use? Probably so. As could many of the other techniques.

    Heck, TIP even snookered me into subscribing to their online newsletter (i.e., sales pitch tool). And it's just harmlessly goofy enough that I keep reading it.

    Hmm...



    Ken

    * Yet again, only IF they really want to continue selling film in the long-term.
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  8. #88

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    Ken, I don't know what forums you frequent, but if it's only APUG, then I'm not surprised you haven't seen good things about Portra. This forum is pretty negative towards Kodak in general, either of the sort of active criticism "I don't like Kodak, they dissed me in the past" or of the disinterested "Kodak doesn't care about film".

    Other forums have been pretty positive towards Ektar over the past couple years. I've read a number of times people stating Ektar is the best thing Kodak has come out with in years and/or it's the only Kodak film they like.

    With respect to Portra 400, it's gotten a lot of talk on film groups on flickr, Rangefinder Forum, photo.net, and l-camera-forum. Most of those sites cite the tests done by Jonathan Canlas, Twin Lens Life, and Figital Revolution, all of whom had access to the film pre-release and and posted their reviews the day Kodak announced the film. The public perception in some of those groups is that this film is almost magic and enables pushing to speeds never before attained, with thread titles like, 'Portra 400 - Changed the game for colour neg film'. Though it's a great film, I actually view some of this as a bit over the top.

    On top of this, regular schmoes like athiril and me have finally gotten our hands on the film and done a couple tests which only add to word of mouth marketing. Tests run by regular users that I've seen include exposure latitude tests, comparisons to 400NC/VC, pushing tests, and even a 3 way casual comparison between a Canon 5DII, Portra 400 rated at 1600, TMY rated and 1600, and TMZ rated at 3200. Some of those discussions went on for hundreds of posts.

    I think Kodak IS engaging in this kind of marketing to a certain small extant. They are most definitely a bit more standoffish that TIP or Ilford, but I'm of the opinion they actually are engaged in some viral marketing. It's only here on APUG where it doesn't seem to penetrate because every time the work 'Kodak' is mentioned, people like to go all negative. And even if a meaningful discussion does occur, it usually degenerates into a pissing match because some mentions the word 'scan' or decides to argue about magenta.

  9. #89

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    I think Magenta was my favorite character in "Rocky Horror Picture Show".
    I think Kodak is blowing a really great chance to stimulate the film market. There are So Many new photographers, and they almost all say when they see my film camera "is that a Film Camera?! I really want to shoot film". I think an ideal marketing message would be along the lines of "Now Try The Good Stuff", and with TMX, Portra and Tri-X it is.

  10. #90

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    With the removal of the shop by shop infrastructure for 'ordinary' users of film it cannot be brought back to mass use. The costs to recreate it would be too high. The infamous chicken-or-egg situation comes in to play too of course.

    Is it the case in the US as well that the only legal purpose of a limited company is to maximise return for share-holders ? Kodak, or any company, must produce toilet-seats if that is chosen by the board as the way ahead because it is expected to give the highest return on capital. It doesn't mean it's the right or competent decision over time, but that doesn't matter. Unfortunately for colour film users.

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