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  1. #51
    Poisson Du Jour's Avatar
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    Erm... PE, what are "imponderables"??
    .::Gary Rowan Higgins

    A comfort zone is a wonderful place. But nothing ever grows there.
    —Anon.






  2. #52

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    Well we are a mile off the original thread but to keep it that way, I wonder how the situation in Japan compares to the leak at Sellafield in the U.K. a number of years ago. Strangely the U.K. media hasn't made any comparison. Maybe if it did it wouldn't help dramatise the situation and the media abhor lack of drama.

    Anyway Harman at Mobberley is less than 200 miles from Sellafield and to the best of my knowledge doesn't have any safeguard for its film from radiation. If it did I suspect it would have mentioned it as it would make an interesting talking point on any tour.

    Maybe B&W film is less affected?

    Of course in an island as small as the U.K. a leak big enough to affect film might be the least of our worries.

    pentaxuser

  3. #53
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    Of course in an island as small as the U.K. a leak big enough to affect film might be the least of our worries.


    Telephone operator to John Cleese: "There are too many people on this island."
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    As for my sources, they are impeccable, I assure you! After all, even if I was quoting myself!
    PE
    Right on PE.

  5. #55

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    This intense posturing on Internet is getting quite annoying.... Seems no one can talk about product shortage or buying "just in case" without prefacing statements with their deepest concern to people of Japan or else they get attacked for being insensitive, self-servicing, and just plain evil.

    The truth is, people of Japan are suffering immensely. The truth is, people in rest of the world still has to live their lives and enjoy themselves. The truth is, products shortage will likely be a reality at least for a short term for some products. Rest of the world enjoying their lives doesn't impact people in Japan. While I wish people don't buy now only to sell later at inflated prices, products are there to be purchased.

    Look... I was born there and lived there until late teen years. I appreciate very much when people ask me if my family or friends are impacted. (no one I know are impacted) But there is no need for this hyper sensitivity and posturing. This endless argument isn't helping anyone and you are only creating animosity. Please stop if you are concerned about people there and care about the actual problem. If would like to act, please consider making even small donations. If your situation does not permit it, please keep them in your thoughts.

    That's all I have to say. Good night.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  6. #56
    M.A.Longmore's Avatar
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    Thank You, Mr. Kamiya !

    .

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________


    Sanjay Sen - APUG Subscriber
    Sanjay Sen, 36, a champion of human and animal rights, died June 3 in a motorcycle accident in Wayne, New Jersey.

    July 23 1975 - June 3 2012

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  7. #57
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    Sandholm and I were both correct about the mistakes made at TMI, PE. To mention him alone here implies that I was not correct.

    But it is not correct that "pure luck" saved it from being even more disastrous. That is crazy; you two are defending a ridiculous overstatement, and categorizing the operators as a group of 100% screwups, who had nothing to do with preventing this from becoming a worse accident. The truth of the matter is that a bunch of people scrambling to figure out what the hell to do finally arrived at the right answer. That is not luck. Luck would have been choosing response steps "purely" (to use Sandholm's term) at random from a wide possibility of options, and having the chosen step turn out by chance to be the correct step. There wasn't any chance involved in a group of operators finally figuring out what was going on and how to stop it. This was not "pure luck." Do you really believe that some divine thing such as CHANCE saved that reactor from totally melting down and probably busting open?

    Are you here to post information that stirs people up and gets the last laugh? That is a funny way around responding to contrary points, especially from someone who uses the fact that he used to be a scientist in order to defend his arguments so often. Ignore my points if you don't want to respond to them. You have no duty to answer anyone. But at least accept that they are reasonable points, and don't make fun simply because I am not 100% on the same page as you.

    However well-intentioned your post was – and I do think that it was, PE, don't get me wrong! – all you had to do was wait for real information with a real, nameable source. If your sources are impeccable, then name them. And tell us what they said. "Hi, folks. Fujifilm Japan reporting here. Radiation is going to affect our film production. We are receiving this much, which is enough to affect our film negatively," would be what they would have need to have said to make this a responsible and timely post on your part. As of now, it is an alarmist and fear-stirring post without cause.
    The NBC national news reported that 3 mile island was prevented from becoming a major national disaster on the order of Chrenoby (Wormwood in Russion which led many to believe that it was from Revelations in the Bible) by the action of several heroic engineers and "good luck". I was combining several sources to come to that final statement of mine which agreed with others.

    My sources prefer to remain anonymous! If I revealed them, then you would not be safe in the confessional, would you? I can't tell you anything except that they know what they are talking about. But then, having been in middle management at Kodak for years, you are also questioning my veracity.

    OTOH, I did say "possible"! We just don't know! That is the problem. If I knew, I would say.

    Have a nice day. You need one!

    PE

  8. #58
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandholm View Post
    No mSv values has been release except the values are 1600 times higher then normal, and Japan has earlier reported that the normal value for them are 10.27 mSv/24h, so the 1600x increase should give them a value around 16500 mSs/24h. Chernobyl was around 10,000–300,000 mSv/hr, so its far from Chernobyl. If you worked at a nuclear plant you know that most of them say that you should not be exposed to more then 20 mSv for a whole year, and current/earlier (dont know now) its around 640 mSv/hr at "ground zero", and I would not call this "nothing", that IS really bad, just for reference (and this is a single dose, not over 1hr)

    100 mSv - great risk for birth defects
    3-4 Sv - 50% chans to die
    10 Sv - 100% chans to die, aka DEAD

    Here is a live geiger counter in Tokyo http://www.ustream.tv/channel/7517126
    (a geiger measurement alone can not be translated to mSv, because to do that you have to know the type of radiation and how deadly it is)

    cheers
    Hi, Sandholm.

    The numbers you post are not in relation to my statement against which you are arguing. You are talking about the plant grounds, and at those levels, specifically core readings. I was talking about the surrounding communities (i.e. the evacuated areas). From what I can gather from a little rereading of newspaper articles, there are readings that peaked at 0.17 mSv/hr (about 4 mSv per day) within the evacuation zone, where nobody is located. Here is what I said initially, to which you responded with your post that I quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    Yes, it is to be expected. But what are the levels? Not enough to do anything to anyone. Even in the communities surrounding "ground zero," this is not the case.
    The first three sentences refer to PE's mention of radiation (of unspecified amounts) in the Pacific NW. The fourth sentence says that even the radiation in the communities surrounding the plant (i.e. the evacuated areas) is not enough to do anything to anyone unless maintained at that level for some time (which will not be the case once the radiation leaks are contained at the plant).

    20 mSv/yr is correct for international workers. The limit for U.S. plant workers is 2.5x that. (We use rem here, and the limit is 5 rem/yr, though we try, and usually succeed to keep it to 1/10 of that.)

    I also do not gather that 640 mSv/hr is average for the grounds of the plant. From what I have read, there was a confirmed spike up to 400 mSv/hr at one of the cores about a week ago, and an unconfirmed spike up to 1 Sv/hr at one of the cores at one point. The peak recorded at the main gate at Fukushima is 11 mSv/hr, and that is above the average for the gate throughout the accident.

    That spike reading of 0.17 mSv/hr is in the communities surrounding the plant. Add 6,000 miles of overseas travel to it, and you'll see that the radiation reaching the Pacific NW isn't even worth losing a second's sleep over. Yet people are intent on mentioning over and over and over that radiation has arrived here on the west coast, as if it means something.

    Again, if you are really worried about radiation here, wear sunscreen every day. It will do you more good over your life than freaking out and staying indoors eating iodine tablets.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  9. #59
    Poisson Du Jour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron LarFor4X5 View Post
    .
    Thank You, Mr. Kamiya !

    .

    I second that.
    .::Gary Rowan Higgins

    A comfort zone is a wonderful place. But nothing ever grows there.
    —Anon.






  10. #60
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    If I knew, I would say.
    But you did say. Even though you don't know. Something like, "This is the case, but I don't really know, but somebody says this, but I cannot tell you who or what exactly they said, but trust me it's true, and NO I will never reveal who even though I will gladly tell you what they sort of said, and by the way radiation has reached the west coast, and it could affect film production in small amounts, but I don't know what amounts, and............so on and so on." What is the point of this post, PE? It is a bunch of sourceless hoopla over nothing, for as much as we know right now.

    Can't you at least source the two painfully obvious questions before publishing?

    1) What types and amounts of radiation damage film in production?
    2) Are these types and levels present at the Fuji manufacturing plant/s?

    Then you have something to actually say, instead of dancing drunk through an ill-prepared post.

    As for TMI, so, you think an NBC newscast recalled from 30 years ago has it right, but Naval Reactors and the NRC have it wrong. I think that NR and the NRC would beg to differ...and I can guarantee you that "pure luck" is not in any of their reports on the accident. Additionally, even the NBC source credits heroic engineers and good luck. And that proves to you that "pure luck" is the cause of minimizing the accident? You just disproved your own point with that source you named. What is was was a timely discovery of a solution, not luck. There is a big difference between the two.

    Ok. What I have done is argued sensible, and provably correct, points dryly, without attacking you personally. What you have done is to post meandering sort-of-statements of sort-of-fact, lumber around any criticism with smart alec comments, and dole out backhanded personal swipes. I have to ask again what your game is here?
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 03-22-2011 at 09:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)



 

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