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  1. #71
    hrst's Avatar
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    Three Miles; The concept of "luck" is difficult. Of course you can say it's luck that it didn't go worse, but you forget to mention that, at the same time, it already was bad luck it got that worse. Luck has two sides. So, "it was very bad luck it got that bad" is just as valid as an argument. This is why I wouldn't use luck as an argument at all, but keep to the facts. The effect of "luck" has to be minimized in design, but IMO, it has no place in speculation in aftermath, because you can claim anything with it. Optimists will say that it was just "bad luck" it happened and pessimists will say it was "good luck" it didn't go worse.

    The exact radiation measurements from Japan are available somewhere online but I couldn't find them... The bottom line was, that outside the 30 km area the levels are mostly around 5 ÁSv/h, with some exceptions in north or north-east where they had one peak considerably more at one point about 30 km from the plant. At 50 km or so, the numbers dropped very quickly below 1 ÁSv/h.

  2. #72

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    How about existing film far from the incident?

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...Film is hyper sensitive to all radiation. If there is any present, they will have to introduce draconian methods at the Fuji plant in Ashigara to eliminate the problem...I have been told that Fuji film and paper users should stock up on film as a "just in case" provision to tide them through to the summer months...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    ...There is more radiation from taking a cross-country plane trip than from Japan right now!...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...Remember that I said nuclear tests in the Pacific had an effect on film made in Rochester!...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...it showed up as tiny black specks and then it only showed up after a few months. It took time for cumulative exposure to affect the films. The 120 films were heavily affected to my knowledge because the paper was "infected"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Tonights news reports that sensors in Seattle and Vancouver have detected an increase in radiation. Also, some detectors in northern US have detected radiation as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...The levels from the nuclear tests in the Pacific were too low to affect anyone here, but they affected Kodak films and changed the way the buildings making emulsions and coatings were built and protected...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...People will not notice it any more than they notice an X-Ray, but the film might look like someone peppered it with black dots...
    OK Ron, the main question for me is as follows. Given a freezer stocked full of Kodak sheet film made at least six months ago, being on the west coast of the US, how would you guess this incident might affect long term keeping? Any measurable artifacts over time compared to expected fog from normal cosmic radiation? Did the nuclear tests' fallout have more impact on Kodak production during coating and the time immediately after than it did on fully "mature" film? Thanks in advance.

  3. #73
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    Sal;

    Everyone here is missing a salient point in this. There is radiation such as cosmic and X-Rays etc.. and there are particles that emit radiation such as alpha and beta radiation. These are different!

    The radiation from the nuclear plants are particles of dust that are radioactive and that emit radiation such as alpha and beta radiation and other types as well. So, water in Tokyo is contaminated with radioactive Iodine. You cannot filter out the Iodine with a filter, but rather you have to precipitate it chemically. Then you filter it out and hope that the Iodine has not created secondary radioactive materials in the water. At the same time, the radioactive water (steam) emitted from the plant undoubtedly contains some radioactive Zirconium. Zr has 3 radioactive isotopes with half lives that are quite long and I believe that they all emit beta radiation. These high energy electrons (or positrons) are only stopped by a barrier and can be widely distributed by the Zr dust and oxides of Zirconium caused by the fires.

    So, we have a radioactive dust that is floating in the air and which can be carried far and wide. Now, this dust can land on a piece of film during manufacture. As is sits there, the atoms in this particle of dust begin to emit beta particles or whatever radiation is applicable to the dust and eventually a black spot shows up.

    You could get this dust into a camera, onto your shoes (see news reports of reporters having radioactive dust on their shoes but nowhere else) and you can get it into your lungs. As the dust sits there (as is), the level may be very low and test low, but with time, it emits particles which cause a fog center that becomes larger and larger until the film is speckled with black dots.

    At Kodak, we did nothing about Cosmic Radiation, but we did filter out particles as much as we could, and we used foot baths for shoes that might pick up these dust particles from the ground. We used positive pressure in all buildings and coating rooms so that dust was blown out, and we used air curtains to blow the dust and dirt off of our clothes when we went into coating areas. In some areas, we used white suits supplied by EK, along with special shoes. We even had an in-plant shoe store that sold special shoes to employees. I wore those shoes for years. They prevented static electricity, were water tight, and didn't let dust cling to them. They also had steel toes as an added precaution but that is another story.

    The whole thing boils down to radioactive dust or gas that is transported and deposited. The worst problem comes when something dissolves in water such as the Iodine mentioned above.

    PE

  4. #74

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    I'll interpret your reply to mean...

    Thanks for all that information. Given the situation I asked about, I'm going to take your reply to mean that I should pay close attention to keeping the top of my refrigerator dust-free and not be too concerned about any effect on stockpiled film in the freezer compartment.

  5. #75
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    Not quite Sal. Cosmic radiation is also cumulative over time, but the film manufacturing process is so short lived as far as the film is concerned, that the radiation is not a huge factor. Also, the brick buildings tend to absorb some of it just as your house does.

    So, 400 speed film will "age" faster in the freezer than 100 speed film, and the dust is just insult to injury over the long haul.

    PE

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...So, 400 speed film will "age" faster in the freezer than 100 speed film, and the dust is just insult to injury over the long haul...
    I understood and was expecting cosmic radiation-induced cumulative fog on higher speed films in long-term storage. I inferred from your previous answer that any added "insult" would be at a lower order of magnitude, especially if one prevents dust from accumulating on top of the refrigerator.

    Was I being too optimistic?

  7. #77
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    Actually no. Only gamma radiation would get through your refrigerator IMHO, along with Cosmic rays! IIRC, the gamma radiation comes from Iodine 101 and this isotope has a half life of about 8+ days. So, it will probably be long gone by the time it arrives here. The question is why so much radioactive Iodine in Tokyo water, more than 8 days after the event?

    So yeah, you are probably safe unless you get the dust into your camera or lungs! Too bad you live in CA.

    Tonight's news says that the problem is getting worse instead of better! No in-depth report yet.

    PE

  8. #78

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    its the cosmic rays every time ...
    im empty, good luck

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    Three Miles; The concept of "luck" is difficult. Of course you can say it's luck that it didn't go worse, but you forget to mention that, at the same time, it already was bad luck it got that worse. Luck has two sides. So, "it was very bad luck it got that bad" is just as valid as an argument. This is why I wouldn't use luck as an argument at all, but keep to the facts. The effect of "luck" has to be minimized in design, but IMO, it has no place in speculation in aftermath, because you can claim anything with it. Optimists will say that it was just "bad luck" it happened and pessimists will say it was "good luck" it didn't go worse.
    I just dropped the discussion because I just realized there were no point, it went away from facts to values/believes.

    I will just use one part of the three mile iland incident, and why I said "luck". The power plant had ONLY two phone lines in, and when the accident become public these were all blockets. The people who had built the plant did do some number crunching and realized that it was to low amount of water in the reactor tank. At this stage (and what started the incident) were that the operators believed it was to much and pumped water out. The problem were that the engineers could not get through to the operators, because both phone lines were blocked. When they did it was after several hours and they told the operators to dump 400 gallons into the reactor. At this stage the reactor were around 4500 degrees, if the reactor would have reached 5000 degrees its over, you have a process that can not be shut down, the core will melt through the tank, through the floor, and down down down several hundra meters, during this process it will vaporize all water and huge geyser would have spread really nasty material over a huge area.

    This is luck, that the operators got the information and that it was still time.

    Also when the reactor was investigated, i think it was in 98, 50% of the core had melted, this is not a small incident, and it was pure luck that nothing went really bad.

    For people who want an overview, both of the incident and the pure ignorance and attitude the power plant company had, check out the National Geographic program Minutes to Meltdown Three Mile Island, its astonishing and chocking.

    cheers

  10. #80
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    sandholm, I agree with what you say, but I think you missed my point.

    I could say that it was just bad luck that the reactor was around 4500 deg.F, it could have been only at 3500 deg.F. Or, it was just bad luck the phone lines were blocked that badly.

    You see, this mysterious "luck" can be used to change things in both directions, and you can claim anything by "bare luck". But, in reality, it was not luck, but the facts and actions that led to a certain situation. Had the real actions changed, the situation would have changed, too.

    Of course it is still very valuable to evaluate or simulate an even-worse situation to reduce the risks in the future; we can learn from our mistakes, but we don't need to actually do every mistake before learning. But the very purpose of this simulation is to dump the concept of "luck".

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