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  1. #101
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    ...for the average person chemical based photography is just about dead ...
    And this is true. And mainly this is because of what an earlier poster mentioned about high-tech marketing and programmed consumers. Digital photography plays right into it. For the entire century of the 1900's, camera manufacturers could make whatever camera they wanted, with whatever feature they liked. But the camera in the end was only a holder for somebody else's film. The camera manufacturer's didn't have control of the image and they didn't get recurring revenue. So Nikon (for example) sells a multi-hundred dollar camera and it's Kodak's film that the consumer ultimately uses to judge the product. Not to mention that recurring revenue stream that Kodak/Fuji/Ilford enjoys from that camera for as long as the shutter is clicking.

    So the camera manufacturers wanted Kodak out of their shorts. Kodachrome is Kodachrome no matter whose camera it's in. But with DIGITAL, the manufacturer can now credibly claim there is some great difference between their camera and the next guy's due to the wonderful, special sensor only they have.

    So people bought digital cameras. But, after the newness wears off they stop using that camera. Now Nikon has to come up with something new to create interest again, so they add mega-pixels and features. Now instead of the 10 MP camera, you've got to have the 18 MP camera. Does if make a difference? Not really, but like horsepower or watts or whatever, more is more so it's better. You can create a great photo with a Hasselblad, a digital P&S or an Instamatic. The photographer makes the photograph what it is, not the camera.

    But how is Nikon and Canon and Pentax and so on really doing financially today? Probably not much better than they ever were and maybe not even as good, IDK. But I know this: they found out the same thing Kodak learned a hundred years ago. People use the camera a whole lot while it is new and then they lose interest. Kodak solved the problem by coming out with a new format every so often. The camera became new again because it was easier to load or it fit in your purse and Kodak sold more film with Fuji riding the wave. This means huge R&D budgets to keep developing the next great thing. Kodak had those budgets for years, but that was OK because the payoff was huge. Now the payoff isn't so huge but it's still there and that will keep someone in the business for a long time. But Nikon and Canon have to keep that R&D going and it's got to have to payoff in the end.

    They they came out with cameras in iPhones and Nikon takes it in the teeth. They never figured on that! It isn't just Kodak in their shorts anymore, now you can add Apple and Motorola and whoever else. There's a whole lot more companies that make electronics than ever made that film.

    And now guess what happens? Somebody came out with a new kind of analog camera and it's something new and people like it and use it - which is good for us.

    My end analysis? If Nikon and Canon made film, film would still be king.
    Last edited by kb3lms; 06-10-2011 at 01:38 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  2. #102
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Amateur radio can be almost free as transmitters and receivers can be made from a few valves and other bits and pieces electronics hobbyists have in their spare parts drawers/cupboards...
    Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....

    Oops! Sounds like a recurring theme! :-)

  3. #103
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb3lms View Post
    Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....
    I have a shed full of them!

    Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by kb3lms View Post
    And this is true. And mainly this is because of what an earlier poster mentioned about high-tech marketing and programmed consumers. Digital photography plays right into it. For the entire century of the 1900's, camera manufacturers could make whatever camera they wanted, with whatever feature they liked. But the camera in the end was only a holder for somebody else's film. The camera manufacturer's didn't have control of the image and they didn't get recurring revenue. So Nikon (for example) sells a multi-hundred dollar camera and it's Kodak's film that the consumer ultimately uses to judge the product. Not to mention that recurring revenue stream that Kodak/Fuji/Ilford enjoys from that camera for as long as the shutter is clicking.

    So the camera manufacturers wanted Kodak out of their shorts. Kodachrome is Kodachrome no matter whose camera it's in. But with DIGITAL, the manufacturer can now credibly claim there is some great difference between their camera and the next guy's due to the wonderful, special sensor only they have.

    So people bought digital cameras. But, after the newness wears off they stop using that camera. Now Nikon has to come up with something new to create interest again, so they add mega-pixels and features. Now instead of the 10 MP camera, you've got to have the 18 MP camera. Does if make a difference? Not really, but like horsepower or watts or whatever, more is more so it's better. You can create a great photo with a Hasselblad, a digital P&S or an Instamatic. The photographer makes the photograph what it is, not the camera.

    But how is Nikon and Canon and Pentax and so on really doing financially today? Probably not much better than they ever were and maybe not even as good, IDK. But I know this: they found out the same thing Kodak learned a hundred years ago. People use the camera a whole lot while it is new and then they lose interest. Kodak solved the problem by coming out with a new format every so often. The camera became new again because it was easier to load or it fit in your purse and Kodak sold more film with Fuji riding the wave. This means huge R&D budgets to keep developing the next great thing. Kodak had those budgets for years, but that was OK because the payoff was huge. Now the payoff isn't so huge but it's still there and that will keep someone in the business for a long time. But Nikon and Canon have to keep that R&D going and it's got to have to payoff in the end.

    They they came out with cameras in iPhones and Nikon takes it in the teeth. They never figured on that! It isn't just Kodak in their shorts anymore, now you can add Apple and Motorola and whoever else. There's a whole lot more companies that make electronics than ever made that film.

    And now guess what happens? Somebody came out with a new kind of analog camera and it's something new and people like it and use it - which is good for us.

    My end analysis? If Nikon and Canon made film, film would still be king.

    http://www.nwmangum.com/Kodak/FilmHist.html
    camera makers made cameras that ONLY TOOK THEIR FILM ...

    but that was a long time ago ...

    i don't think film would be king, if canon and nikon made film. we'd probably be in the same leaky boat we are in today,
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
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  5. #105
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    ... valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made...
    Yes, they are! Personally, I plan on going to the grave with TMAX if I don't kill myself first with that 6L6 transmitter that I plan on building someday in my workshop / darkroom!

  6. #106
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    While I'll grant that film is no longer King on my end of the photographic spectrum, when I bought my FM10 new in the middle of the last decade, the salesman called me an utter fool because film would be nonexistent within a couple years. This guy was still doing custom processing at the time, too, and advised me to come to him to get my film developed. While I went ahead and bought the camera from him, I just didn't care for the negativity (no pun intended).

    As for digital... when we bought my new Android phone, it instantly outmoded everything I own except for my film cameras and the EOS XSi. Sucker has a sharp (for a phone, especially) 8mp camera built in, and takes HD video to boot! All it lacks is an optical zoom, but even with a digital zoom it blows away my "older" digi-gear. I'd considered a point-n-shoot to carry with me, but there's really no need now, unless it's an XA or the like.

  7. #107
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    i don't think film would be king, if canon and nikon made film. we'd probably be in the same leaky boat we are in today,
    Yeah, it could be that way, too. Who really knows?

    What I do know is that it's a beautiful day and time to load up the TMAX and Portra for the weekend.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith
    Quote Originally Posted by kb3lms View Post
    Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....
    I have a shed full of them!

    Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


    Steve.
    Somewhere, if I still have it, in an old ARRL handbook I have an article about making your own triodes. If I recall correctly you use mercury to scavenge the air in the sealed envelope.
    Michael Batchelor
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    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  9. #109
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    I have a shed full of them!

    Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


    Steve.
    ...and my personal favorites, 7027A's.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #110

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    A digital file that cannot be directly seen by man will never replace a pice of film which you can always see. It is more tangible and it never stops existing. There is no way that the file cannot be played anymore, there is no need to transfer them to your new hard drive or make them updated for the new technologies to come. With film you can always scan it when you need it.



 

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