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  1. #21
    MattKing's Avatar
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    FWIW ....

    I don't think that this thread was ever in danger of being shut down if it remained on (the OP's) topic.

    But as Ian pointed out above, any time that issues of scanning are tangential to a thread, they can and sometimes do become the primary focus of the thread, in which case the thread is vulnerable to being shut down.

    As an example, if the thread became about which lab does the best scans, it would probably be shut down.

    APUG's exclusionary rules do serve a purpose, but they also have an attendant cost. The balancing act continues.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  2. #22
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    FWIW ....

    I don't think that this thread was ever in danger of being shut down if it remained on (the OP's) topic.

    But as Ian pointed out above, any time that issues of scanning are tangential to a thread, they can and sometimes do become the primary focus of the thread, in which case the thread is vulnerable to being shut down.

    As an example, if the thread became about which lab does the best scans, it would probably be shut down.

    APUG's exclusionary rules do serve a purpose, but they also have an attendant cost. The balancing act continues.
    Fine by me, provided everyone keeps their sticks on the ice--mods included.

  3. #23

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    Repeating my post so that it doesn't get lost among the vitally interesting discussion of forum policy. (If anything happens perhaps the off-topic posts will get split off and exiled to the site-related forum.)

    Monito wrote: "Are you up north permanently? Or is it a renewable term job or some other arrangement that lets you come down south, say to Halifax, from time to time for a few weeks. If so, ship your film to a drop point you can pick it up from and then you can develop it yourself in a few big sessions. Kind of does the "no instant gratification" thing real big!"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post

    But as Ian pointed out above, any time that issues of scanning are tangential to a thread, they can and sometimes do become the primary focus of the thread, in which case the thread is vulnerable to being shut down.

    As an example, if the thread became about which lab does the best scans, it would probably be shut down.
    Which is totally ridiculous. That's a fact.

    Scanning is what labs mostly do now. It's their core business model with regards to film. They advertise on APUG with banners that say so. I'm staring at one again as I type.

    The whole concept behind APUG is facilitate analog film use in a digital age. If APUG throws a moderation barrier between a potential customer of an analog lab and a customer because the s*** word is over-used, that is a surefire way to drive people away not from APUG, but from the lab.

    The relationship between a photog and a lab is maybe more important now than ever for well-known economic reasons, so to limit discussions about what a lab does via APUG threads is a disservice to the lab, a turn-off to potential customers, and is ultimately self-estructive to the analog photographic community. I want to know which labs do dip and dunk vs roller, which do true black and white paper versus color, and what their scan resolutions are comparatively, and what prices. They offer packages so should be discussed as a package for value and quality. That's the whole reason they advertise here.

    A sidebar discussion about a lab's scan quality is not only healthy, but it drives business. I see the word "scan" in an APUG ad and I think I should ask on APUG about that service package, hear about the value from others here. After all, that's where the ad is, driving that synergy.

    Clearly the advertisers on APUG "get it" while some other types here I guess do not. The whole idea that a thread could get shut down for such talk is only a means to drive a wedge between the customer and APUG advertisers. That's the opposite of facilitation. I already described what that is.

    I have been over to DPUG and it's a wasteland. The action is here but the way spook posters here about scanning is certainly not doing the advertising labs and Ilford etc. any favors.

  5. #25
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    The whole concept behind APUG is facilitate analog film use in a digital age.
    Sorry, this is incorrect - from the very top of the page: "APUG.ORG is an international community of like minded individuals devoted to traditional (non-digital) photographic processes."

    I'm not disagreeing with you about the value of discussions about labs and scanning. It just that APUG has decided for very good reasons not to go there. The issue has been revisited many times, and the same decision has been made each time.

    And throughout that process, APUG has continued to grow and prosper.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    The action is here but the way spook posters here about scanning is certainly not doing the advertising labs and Ilford etc. any favors.
    Agreed. Purism is fine, as it will satisfy a narrow segment. However, the way some domineering vocal members here are so anal about analog, as revealed by their signature lines about proctologists and upraised digits, is hardly an attraction for photographers who come here to, you know, like, maybe, learn something about film photography. The chauvinists write things like 'To represent a proper balance digital users are called "crackheads", "have no clue" and "dog turds"'. They tried to run me off the site in my first week here because I dared to explain that fundamentally both digital and analog photography are electronic imaging systems. They thought I might be a new user who didn't know anything about developing or enlarging and when their dirty deed was done they could go back to slapping each other on the back happy their little corner would be smug and pure.

    Unfortunately, most who approach this site don't want to stand up to such bullying or have the time for it.

    [Since the off-topic continues and I can't beat it, I join it.]

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    Sorry, this is incorrect - from the very top of the page: "APUG.ORG is an international community of like minded individuals devoted to traditional (non-digital) photographic processes."
    Those processes and devotees do not exist in a vacuum.

    The original poster has a problem with analogue photography that might be solved by impure means.

  8. #28
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    Sorry, this is incorrect - from the very top of the page: "APUG.ORG is an international community of like minded individuals devoted to traditional (non-digital) photographic processes."

    I'm not disagreeing with you about the value of discussions about labs and scanning. It just that APUG has decided for very good reasons not to go there. The issue has been revisited many times, and the same decision has been made each time.

    And throughout that process, APUG has continued to grow and prosper.
    1. Clearly not everyone is "like-minded".

    2. APUG has to censor people "not to go there" even if it is clearly linked to advertising revenue that allows analog business to even exist. Think about that for a second.

    3. Think about it some more, especially what happens when advertisers are involved and the feedback they may receive.

    4. That does not mean that the decision is correct. Again, there is clearly not consensus.

    5. Films disappear because people are not buying them. Creating an artificial wedge issue does not help that cause.

    I am not saying that open-ended Photoshop discussions are on the table. There's enough places for that. But scanning is now an integral part of lab services and labs drive customers to analog, or at least keep them there. For a majority of film users it is the only way to participate in the larger market.

    To cut off that discussion in an analog photo site is self-destructive behavior catering to a narrow few who are fighting a lost cause. I know a ton of young people who would like to mess with film, but they live in a digital world (like APUG advertisers) and need the bridge. DPUG isn't cutting it. They need discussions about labs and scanning and Flickr is not the place either.

    What irks me is when a senior member comes into discussions here and starts waving the "shut down the thread" sign like a school marm. If you cannot talk about a lab's broader services, then this really is a darkroom-only forum and the header quoted is deceptive. People should have the guts to come right out and say that "traditional" means darkroom (and Polaroids) instead of being patronizing. A huge number of people interested in film need a better dialogue on APUG including lab scanning services. Putting them into some ghetto for "their kind" is pitiful and frankly, not defensible. This will get back to advertisers because APUG will get a label as lab-unfriendly. People like me will tell advertisers the negative things about them being associated with APUG. The # of APUG subscribers is shockingly small compared to how big the film market used to be.

  9. #29
    SuzanneR's Avatar
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    The OP is looking for a lab recomendation. Let's stick to that. APUG would like to avoid long threads about the technical issues of scanning, though we all know that scanning is integral to a professional lab's services. So, if you can recommend a lab, then please offer it here, but these arguments about the aim and purpose of APUG are tedious and tiresome.

  10. #30
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    Sorry, this is incorrect - from the very top of the page: "APUG.ORG is an international community of like minded individuals devoted to traditional (non-digital) photographic processes."

    I'm not disagreeing with you about the value of discussions about labs and scanning. It just that APUG has decided for very good reasons not to go there. The issue has been revisited many times, and the same decision has been made each time.

    And throughout that process, APUG has continued to grow and prosper.
    Who's to stop whoever runs APUG from carrying their own buckets of sand to stick their heads in.

    I'm not so sure how this attitude will promote APUG's longevity in view of rapid(and often irrevocable)change in the analog supply chain. Denial isn't much of a strategy.

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