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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDR View Post
    Kodak LF products were neither visible nor available thus lowering the demand for said products. Ilford and other manufacturers are much more proactive than Kodak and are being noticed especially by newcomers. Demand is created trough visibility and promotion and that's a marketing fact.
    Huh, last time I looked at the list of available product at both B&H and Freestyle, Kodak's offerings were visible in great detail, price, reviews, etc. That is what photographers do who take their craft seriously, they check to see what is available, not wait for some ad with John Sexton using TMY in PDN to hit their door step.

    Large format, especially 8x10, is a very niche format, I doubt marketing accounts for any more than 10% of total sales, even considering new comers, who would also take the investigative route over the "Gimmie Slick Marketing" route as well in finding out what is out there.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp498 View Post
    There were about 300 boxes of tmy2 8x10 ordered; not 80, but it's still not much for a year's supply for the industry.
    Canham states here, that at least 218 boxes must be preordered for a Kodak to start a run. They did not, however, and the page here states, that they were 140 boxes short, which means that 78 preorders were placed. That's where my number 80 came from. Your 300 number comes from adding the 218 boxes they ordered in January with the 78 boxes they did not order in October.

    Either way: Kodak is still a huge company and I can understand why they didn't bother with 80 boxes of TMY 8x10.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Ever occur to you that fewer and fewer people are bothering with LF and/or that just possibly Kodak can't economically supply that dwindling demand?
    While a lot of commercial setups probably went the digital route during the last 10 years, I see quite a few amateurs taking advantage of the fire sale prices for used LF equipment. I personally know a few hobbyists who use LF cameras, for whom such equipment would have completely out of reach 20 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDR View Post
    Kodak's history is a history of bad advertising and promotion and I am dealing with it by saying it's the right decision to cut products that don't sell.
    Please don't ignore that Kodak heavily marketed their new Portra line of films and created quite some hype in the analog crowd - even I who swore to never touch color negative film ever again bought dozens of film rolls based on the glowing reviews I read here and elsewhere.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  3. #63
    MDR
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    Please ignore my ignorance about Kodaks US marketing but in Germany and Austria their pro products aren't really promoted all that much especially their LF products. Ilfords B/W products are omnipresent, but try to get Tri-X and it will be a lot harder. I don't know how the situation is in Asia never forget two third of the worlds population live there. PKM as you said they check whats available and Kodak pro B/W film is much harder to get than Ilford Film in Europe. I also believe that the biggest resurgence of LF photography is in China and again I don't know how many Chinese LF shooters use Kodak as opposed to Fuji. I hate for Kodak to cut their products but I'd rather have them survive with a smaller portofolio than go under.

    Dominik

  4. #64
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    Canham states here, that at least 218 boxes must be preordered for a Kodak to start a run. They did not, however, and the page here states, that they were 140 boxes short, which means that 78 preorders were placed. That's where my number 80 came from. Your 300 number comes from adding the 218 boxes they ordered in January with the 78 boxes they did not order in October.

    Either way: Kodak is still a huge company and I can understand why they didn't bother with 80 boxes of TMY 8x10.


    While a lot of commercial setups probably went the digital route during the last 10 years, I see quite a few amateurs taking advantage of the fire sale prices for used LF equipment. I personally know a few hobbyists who use LF cameras, for whom such equipment would have completely out of reach 20 years ago.


    Please don't ignore that Kodak heavily marketed their new Portra line of films and created quite some hype in the analog crowd - even I who swore to never touch color negative film ever again bought dozens of film rolls based on the glowing reviews I read here and elsewhere.
    Don't know how big the writing on the wall has to be to catch people's attention aside from the order shortfalls about LF's prospects.

    Amateur/hobbyist demand isn't close now to what pro demand was for any film material a decade ago. Amateurs could get decent E6 service back then simply because so many pros shot transparency.

    Response to the new Portras was borderline hysterical because it reversed the impression of a flatlining Kodak. The ad "campaign" itself was pretty limp but thanks to the huge archipelago of blogs and boards, news and reviews went viral at no cost to Kodak. It's really nice film but Kodak didn't break the bank convincing us.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    Canham states here, that at least 218 boxes must be preordered for a Kodak to start a run. They did not, however, and the page here states, that they were 140 boxes short, which means that 78 preorders were placed. That's where my number 80 came from. Your 300 number comes from adding the 218 boxes they ordered in January with the 78 boxes they did not order in October.

    Either way: Kodak is still a huge company and I can understand why they didn't bother with 80 boxes of TMY 8x10.
    My 300 number was a little off. It's from an April 23 2011 facebook post by canham with a photo showing 332 boxes of tmy 8x10.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&type=1&ref=nf

    Still not much for a world supply of a popular B&W film for a year. (as the October order hadn't proceeded)

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDR View Post
    h.v. the digital archiving won't get better in the future because the company producing the stuff don't want it to last longer, that's a fact and the companies openly admit it at least to archivists and the UNESCO.

    Dominik
    What are you talking about? Are you talking about Kodak's digital archiving? I'm not. I'm talking about every form of digital archiving, which includes dozens of companies. If digital archiving wasn't going to be getting any better, then how come it is improved even from just a few years ago? Also, keep in mind that not all forms of digital archiving require you to buy something (aside from a computer, of course) which renders your point that companies don't want it to last longer moot. They aren't going to profit from people buying more of a product because they already offer their stuff for free or for a low cost. I'm talking about online archiving, through Facebook, Flickr, Smugmug, Zenfolio, Myspace, etc. As for things you actually buy, hard drives (both internal and external) are getting more sophisticated and powerful by the year. With solid state hard drives dropping in price and thus gaining popularity, there will be less worry of hard drives becoming unusable because of the lack of moving parts.

  7. #67
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    What's all this lame talk about digital got to do with APUG?
    Keep it real fellers!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    The ad "campaign" itself was pretty limp but thanks to the huge archipelago of blogs and boards, news and reviews went viral at no cost to Kodak. It's really nice film but Kodak didn't break the bank convincing us.
    Marketing is changing, the old guard of TV and magazine ads being able to drive a market to a product are over, just like the days of my youth when three networks provided virtually all the content on TV and National Geographic and Life inspired many of us to pick up cameras and use film.

    I'm mot saying that Kodak or Fuji, et al, are doing enough, just that the marketing we expect to see may not be the best use of resources.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  9. #69
    MDR
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    h.v. I am talking digital archiving as a whole btw the more powerful a harddrive is the more likely it is to fail. Facebook and Co is not even ten years old and the content of the profiles constantly changes (constantly rewritten). Germany has a huge Archive for it's digital documents and guess what they save it on microfilm. The best long term digital storage devise is the rosetta stone that nobody uses because nobody can afford it, the second best is magnetic tape (max 30 years that's not long term for an archivist) never believe the propaganda from the digital companies. The best affordable storage devise is Film yes good old Film nothing beats it for economy and and long term stability (under the right conditions). Germany and other countries store it in old mines under ideal conditions and expect it to survive the next 200 - 500 years (that's long term). This market is also unfortunately for Kodak pretty much in Agfa's and Fuji's hand.

    Dominik

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp498 View Post
    My 300 number was a little off. It's from an April 23 2011 facebook post by canham with a photo showing 332 boxes of tmy 8x10.
    So basically this is the shipment of the preorders which were completed until January 2011. Instead of the minimum order quantity of 218 boxes 332 were preordered, it looks like a lot of these boxes went straight into the freezer and haven't been used up yet, hence there was not nearly as much demand in October.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

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