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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab View Post
    Hardly. Personally, I think this one is better.

    B.
    I think that is a poor photo.it is illy composed and there is no emotion in it at all. The light isn't used as did Riefensthal in hers. I really feel the emotion in Owens face, I think this is much better than the majority of sports photos I've seen. Actually, it isn't a sports photo, rather a portrait of Owens and a damned good one, despite her background.

    I'm a Jew and had family and family friends die in that terror of Hitler's and his merry band, but I still have to acknowledge her capacity as a photographer. Look at her use of light and motion in Spear Thrower and again in Circle Dance. Can you honestly tell me that neither is great photography? No, she knew just how to use her tools in order to tell a story or let the viewer gain another viewpoint. I think she was one of the best photographers of that century and yes her ties to nazism were ill done on her part. Her movies were outstanding in their use of light and composition, regardless of the theme of them.

    I'm not an apologist for Leni, rather I condemn the whole of the Rat Pack who took over Germany and also the "ordinary" people who let them do so. I don't feel she was any worse than the persons running the ammunitions factories or the clothing mills or the producers of aircraft during that time. What of the "ordinary" grocer, baker, farmer who did nothing to stop Hitler. I do think that one has to separate the abilities of the artist from his/her feelings and actions outside her/his art.

    Peace, enjoy the beautiful of this world.
    Michael
    Last edited by mikeb380; 11-21-2006 at 08:59 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    I wonder if she got a shot of Hitler walking out of the stadium when Jesse Owens won the gold?

    Of course she knew it all. The tragedy is that she is credited with anything. I see no difference in her pictures than I do in the lamp shade pictures made on human skin that the Nazi had made from the dead in the death camps. If we can't say that they are all sick bastards then we are doomed. There is no middle ground here. Leni Riefenstahl is as much of a monster as the circle of people around Hitler, including architects, painters, and those who searched the world and stole real art and culture to pervert it to the Nazi goal of supremacy and their 1000 year Reich.
    I don't understand you people. I think you are arguing in circles and meaningless ones at that. The ancient Romans took over the known world, going to Cartagena and destroying not only the civilization there, but also destroying the Great Library At Alexandria. and also destroying the greatest repository of books in the known world. Much of what was lost has never been recovered and never will be. The Romans crucified their slaves who were perceived to have done wrong. Every where they went they spread their infamy.Does that mean we should destroy Rome and claim that the architecture and great paintings are not art? The Medici did not hesitate to kill off their opponents when it helped them to forward themselves, or for one of them to marry despite the fact that he was pope and had two children, yet they commissioned some of the great art of the world. Should that be denigrated and destroyed as not being art? While we're a it, how about the Roman church? Lets just look at the time of the Nazi dominance. The church worked hand in glove with the Nazis, turning over to them Jews and others who had escaped Germany and were trying to escape Europe. Let's destroy Vatican City along with all the cathedrals and other amazing architecture as being tainted by the moral turpitude of the Pope and others of the church at that time. Helen, your arguments are specious and juvenile. Whoever said there are absolutes is wrong, there are no absolutes in this universe, every time someone pronounces one, someone else defrocks it. Just because you decry the behavior of an individual or even a country, doesn't mean that you can downgrade the good works which have been done. We might as well say that the roman roads ( many of which are still in use) weren't worth talking about since they destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple there in 7AD. If we suddenly found that Ansel Adams was a covert Ku Klux Klanner, would that make his photos less than we perceive them at present? I think you are getting morals and art confused. Perhaps Leni was a Nazi, perhaps not, that doesn't change the masterly work she did for whatever cause. Does that mean that the present White House Photographer is a talentless fool because he deigned to work for that incompetent ( at best ) bunch in Washington?

    I think many of you ought to realign your perceptions with reality. This thread long ago lost track of the original question which had nothing to do with politics but simply of the merits of a single photo. Can you stay on topic?

    Michael

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas Werth View Post
    Sorry, this post came up when I was writing. True, but "Mein Kampf" was, first, not so widely read, second, if yes, mostly seen as something like fiction or the putting forward of an ideal, and, third, had even in the European abroad received quite favourable reviews. Antisemitism had been not yet outraged, but kept creepig into normal discourse!
    Agreed...

    In Germany older people say "Mein Kampf was like the bible, every household has one, few people ever read it"

    It was a book written by one of 1000 idiots fighting to gain power, spouting bile and (presumably) Bullsht.

    If some guy campaigning for president writes a whackjob book like that... do you really take it at face value? Sure, we now have hindsight now and see he did mean it... but would you have believed he was that crazy at the time?

    Out of interest, I found this today when googling to find out some things on this thread...

    “When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad taste in criticizing the man of the hour in Germany.”

    – Jesse Owens: The Jesse Owens Story, 1970

    Does not make Hitler any better than he was, but just to get facts straight.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    I wonder if she got a shot of Hitler walking out of the stadium when Jesse Owens won the gold?
    He did not.

    The day before he had walked out about the time an African American had won. Since the war that was seen as a racist sleight, the Germans claimed it was coincidence, that it was his planned departure time.

    as mentioned above, J.O wrote..

    “When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad taste in criticizing the man of the hour in Germany.”

    – Jesse Owens: The Jesse Owens Story, 1970


    Once again, in no way meant to make Hitler sound more human, but in a discussion like this it is essential to stick to facts (which are bad enough when it comes to 3rd Reich) buttering the bread with hearesay and legend minimalizes the real horror of the era.

    Best
    Chris

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
    Dear Lukas,

    Three. Don't forget Mao. Very roughly, Hitler was reponsible for the deaths of 16,000,000 people; Stalin, for 32,000,000; and Mao for 64,000,000.

    Only Mao's regime is still in power -- and doing a roaring trade with the west.

    Cheers,

    R.
    The difference being Hitler didn't win, leaving his victors to make 16,000,001 TV documentaries about him, including such objective productions as "Even Hitler had a girlfriend".

  6. #116

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    The data, horrifyingly, included experiments on prisoners in concentration camps to see how long people take to drown.
    Do you mean this:

    infamous Dachau experiments in which almost 300 male prisoners were placed in vats of freezing water. The men were observed, measured and analysed, sometimes to the point of death; sometimes they were warmed up again with boiling water.
    Before feeding them to the loch ness monster.
    Last edited by praktica; 12-21-2008 at 07:22 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #117
    Philippe-Georges's Avatar
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    Last edited by Philippe-Georges; 12-22-2008 at 05:16 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: why?
    "...If you can not stand the rustle of the leafs, then do not go in to the woods..."
    (freely translated quote by Guido Gezelle)

    PS: English is only my third language, please do forgive me my sloppy grammar...

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