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  1. #1

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    Panchromatic Dye Matrix Film?

    Hello Ron,
    I have posted this question on Jim Browning's Die Tranfer Yahoo Group. I figure that you are old enough to remember Dye Tranfer. I am thinking about evaluating my current pan emulsion as a pan matrix film. When processed and fully dryed the emulsion shows a feelable positive relief. I Am interested in the dye transfer process. I am wondering if you know what thickness to lay down for a panchro matrix film. I understand that, for ortho matrix film 10-15 microns is required, but a panchro matrix film should be "condiderably thicker"
    Bill

  2. #2
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    Hi Bill, well I'm not Ron of course (though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night..), but I would have to suggest that thickness shouldn't be governed by its spectral sensitivity. One contributing factor to EK Panchro-Matrix being thicker than ortho might be the use of a heavier extinction dye/pigment. If there's a lot of carbon black(?) in there, that could contribute to the thickness.

    It seems to me that once it's etched it shouldn't matter whether it started out as panchro or ortho, because having a thin relief is helpful in getting really good flush contact with the matrix & transfer paper.

    I'd have to think that investigating PVA's dye imbibition properties would be paramount to coating thickness at this stage. But, whenever I say something like this I end up eating crow when a few more posts come down the line.

    FWIW, the Polaroid Vectograph process relied on imbibing dyes to a polyvinyl-alcohol surface, so it will accept dye which is cheery news.

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    I don't know if it was carbon black in there, which would seem purplish black. Pan matrix seemed rather blue-black to my eye, like a dye. Maybe Ctein would know.

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    I'd have to think that investigating PVA's dye imbibition properties would be paramount to coating thickness at this stage. But, whenever I say something like this I end up eating crow when a few more posts come down the line


    Holmbuerges. That is the million dollar question.

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    Bill, for a rough and dirty test you might mix up a batch of RIT dye and make it slightly acidic with acetic-acid or vinegar (maybe 2%ish) and submerge your plates in that.

    To my surprise, I was able to make a dye transfer with food coloring and vinegar. At least this test might give you an idea of how PVA reacts to dying.

    godspeed!

  6. #6

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    Thanks Holmburgers,
    I will try this in about 2 months. I have no time befor my medical time out.

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    Understood; sending my best for a quick recovery Bill. Warm regards,

    Chris

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    Hi Holmburgers and all,
    For medical reasons my surgery has been postponed for a couple of months. But I was put under general anesthesia yesterday, so I feel abit off today. But today I tried your suggestion of acidified (red) food color. This was on some older plates that had been fixed and cleered a couple of weeks ago.. One plate that had been hardened with Formalin showed no evidence of red coloring after rinsing under running water. The other plate with no hardener showed red uptake, especialy on the thinner areas. Whether or not this can be made to transfer is another question
    I will first make another batch of this emulsion and finish what I need to do with finalization of this formula: Going from 2 alcohol precipitations to only1 and trying another, cheeper dye that has been suggested. Then I will decide where to go from here. I may decide to put the dye transfer on the back burner and go for Jim Brownings sugestion of adding pigment to a panchro emulsion and making a variation of of carbon transfer. Or, I might just make art for a while.
    Cheers,
    Bill

  9. #9
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    Bill;

    IDK the thickness of Matrix or Pan Matrix film. Jim Browning or Ctein might know. As for Carbon Black, it does contain photo active ingredients and must be purified for photographic use. Pan Matrix film used a black dye at one time and Carbon Black at another time. So, the answer is "It depends on the version of product".

    PE

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    Bill,
    first of all, good luck with your surgery, but I am afraid these PVA matrices simply won't work. The reason is simple: they don't have the amino groups present in the gelatin. The dyes (in their ionic form) are attracted to the protonated amino groups (gelatin), so that's why they are held in place even when you rinse the matrix in acetic acid solution. When you make the contact with the receiving paper, there is a gradient in pH between the matrix and the receiving gelatin, so the dye molecules are driven there. Simply put, the dye molecules are more attracted to a gelatin environment with pH 6 rather than about pH 4 (just to make a long story short).

    just my 2 cents

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