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  1. #71
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    yes , it is.

  2. #72
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    Well, I am back with some results and I think they are very encouraging.

    Here are the test conditions,
    Temp: 70 F
    Solution: 20 ml NaOH 25% solution in distilled water
    UUT: 2.5 inch x 1/2 inch strip of PET, approx 12 mils cut from a food container (cherry tomatoes if it matters)

    Procedure: Using a kitchen shot glass, 1/2 of the PET strip was dipped in the NaOH solution and evaluated at 5 minute intervals up to 30 minutes with the exposed part of the PET serving as control. A further check was made at 60 minutes and a final at 6 hours (360 minutes). At the end of each interval the strip was rinsed in clean water and dried. Clarity and wettability (is that a word?) was evaluated against the untreated portion of the strip.

    Results:
    Clarity: The clarity of the strip did not show a noticeable change throughout the test. It appears a clarity change takes longer than 6 hours.

    Wettability: At 0 minutes, wettability was nil. Water dropped onto the strip beaded and ran right off. At 5 minutes, wettability was clearly improved although there was still significant beading. At each 5 minute interval wettability improved up to 30 minutes. However, there was still (but much less) beading even at 60 minutes. Wettabilty might have been acceptable for coating at 60 minutes, though. (Had to leave home for some other business at this point.) Last check at 6 hour point: Beading was nil at this point and water dropped on the PET strip spread into a smooth layer. While wettability might continue to improve, the strip compared favorably to the overnight sample, without the cloudiness.

    The NaOH is granular lye drain cleaner from the hardware store. It's reputed to be quite pure. The ingredients are listed as 100% NaOH.

    At this point, I believe you would want a 6 hour soak in the NaOH to prepare PET for subbing. While higher temperature might reduce the soak time, I think we can see why this wouldn't compare well to corona discharge for an industrial process. But for home brewing, if we're just making a few feet at a time, I see no reason why this method could not be used.

    Any chance someone else can try this to see if the results can be repeated? I do not have any unsubbed PET film on hand. If anyone has some could they give it a try? I am thinking about getting a small roll of Graphix Dura-Lar but I don't think I'd be able to get to it before next week.

    (Wow, I love this stuff!)

    -- Jason
    Last edited by kb3lms; 06-11-2012 at 09:36 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Fixed my math
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  3. #73
    Newt_on_Swings's Avatar
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    Has anyone hear heard of transparent aluminum?

    http://dornob.com/transparent-alumin...al/?ref=search

  4. #74
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    Jason, what a bang up job you've done. This is great stuff!

    I'd love to know how it works with gelatin. I could send you some of the photoformulary melinex, which on one side is basically raw polyester and the other side a subbing that should wash off. Maybe Greg would send you some of his Grafix Dura-lar, mentioned earlier??

    Any idea if this treatment has a 'shelf-life'?
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  5. #75
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newt_on_Swings View Post
    Has anyone hear heard of transparent aluminum?

    http://dornob.com/transparent-alumin...al/?ref=search
    AKA Aluminum Silicate, AKA Gorilla glass.

    Corning wanted to use the name Transparent Aluminum, but it was copyright by Paramount.

    PE

  6. #76
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Jason, Congrulations ! Chris, stick to this guy and conduct new experiments for future.

    Newt on Swings, what a great find ! , I could not believe my eyes when I saw a story about electronics protection film , is it pure aluminum made film or a plastic coating ? I am asking to be sure as others.

    Is it % 100 aluminum film like plastic or a layer on plastic ?

    Umut

  7. #77
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    PE ,

    Gorilla glass ! what a funny name !

    Umut

  8. #78
    daveandiputra's Avatar
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    Isn't gorilla glass is the thing smartphone nowadays uses, the one that resist scratches?

  9. #79
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    I'd love to know how it works with gelatin. I could send you some of the photoformulary melinex, which on one side is basically raw polyester and the other side a subbing that should wash off. Maybe Greg would send you some of his Grafix Dura-lar, mentioned earlier??

    Any idea if this treatment has a 'shelf-life'?
    Chris, I have some of the melinex already. I'm going to try to do a coating run this week on the melinex and am also thinking about trying the acetate subbing I worked out last winter. What I think I could do is find a larger flat piece of PET (say big enough to yield a 120 frame size of 6 x 6 ), give it the treatment and sub and coat it with some leftover emulsion.

    From what I have read in various patents, they don't mention anything about a shelf life. Once the polymer has been hydrolyzed, I don't know if it can recombine on it's own over time.
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  10. #80
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    Jason,

    REALLY interesting!

    As soon as I get back to emulsions (it will take time, I'm currently working on my motion picture lab project), I will definitely try this. If it works well enough, no need for corona treatment. Also, it would be interesting to see if this works with acetate. This probably wouldn't cause wrinkle if coated with emulsion right after NaOH treatment and wash.

    Also, it would be interesting to see how long this treatment lasts. My uneducated guess is that corona discharge causes much finer "teeth" in the material, providing best coatability but smooths out quite quickly, whereas the NaOH treatment would cause larger "teeth".

    This has to be tested with a real emulsion, but you have done a great job for the first stage testing.

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