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  1. #1
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    RYB, Artist's Palette and Kodak Colors

    For me, biggest problem in color photography , who, how experts decide and protect Kodak color palette or Fuji Palette. You can decide red must between that and that but chemically do so is the art. I know Kodak and color experts , anthropologists asks different groups about their culture with showing them color charts.

    I found that artists always used RYB color palette for centuries and I saw some charts about the RYB color wheels and I said that is Ektachrome. I dont know was it possible to emulate RYB with RGB Film inside filters or may be directly using RYB filters in the film. I have no idea.

    If Photo Engineer and friends could shed some light , it would be great.

    Umut

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    Hi Umut,
    While I'm not PE, I do know a little bit about color theory. Not much, but a little.

    Light uses additive color. Three useful additive colors are Red, Green, and Blue. If W=White, R=Red, G=Green, and B=Blue, then W=R+G+B.
    Modern color film (and paints, dyes, and other things) uses subtractive color. Three useful subtractive colors are Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. Using the definitions for additive color variables, C=Cyan, M=Magenta, and Y=Yellow, and C=G+B, M=R+B, and Y=R+G. Throw in a little more algebra, and we can see that C=W-R, M=W-G, and Y=W-B. Leave out the W, as it's implied, and you get: Cyan = Minus Red, Magenta = Minus Green, and Yellow = Minus Blue.

    To get Red, Green, and Blue in transparency film, you use dyes from two layers, so for red you use Minus Green and Minus Blue dyes (magenta and yellow). For green you use minus red and minus blue dyes (cyan and yellow). And for blue you use minus red and minus green (cyan and magenta) dyes. In this way you can get RGB from CMY.

    I hope I wasn't too confusing.
    ME Super

    Shoot more film.
    There are eight ways to put a slide into a projector tray. Seven of them are wrong.

  3. #3
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Early workers in color called Cyan Blue. They called Magenta Red or Purple. So, the problem is that the nomenclature or naming methods have changed.

    PE

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    VERY simply put:

    For many years, Kodak prided itself on 'accurate' color reproduction and chose dyes that produced that 'accurate' result - if you put a picture of a color checker chart next to a color image, they would 'match'. In the early '80s, Fuji brought out a series of color films with saturated colors and customers loved them. (If you took a photo of your house in August, the Kodak films gave you accurate colors - dull skies and brown grass. The Fuji films produced blue skies and green grass. (Such colors were often referred to as 'memory colors'.))

    Kodak did considerable customers research on customer reproduction preferences. Digital technology was used to produce sample prints of the same scene with different color reproduction. Before digital, such test were prepared by coating a variety of emulsion color test, Such tests were rarely 'clean' - meaning you got the color change you wanted but also got things you didn't want. With the digitally produced images, once the color preferences were established, emulsion workers worked to reproduce the desired results. The results were the more highly color saturated Kodak products of the late '80s.

  5. #5
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof_Pixel View Post
    VERY simply put:

    For many years, Kodak prided itself on 'accurate' color reproduction and chose dyes that produced that 'accurate' result - if you put a picture of a color checker chart next to a color image, they would 'match'. In the early '80s, Fuji brought out a series of color films with saturated colors and customers loved them. (If you took a photo of your house in August, the Kodak films gave you accurate colors - dull skies and brown grass. The Fuji films produced blue skies and green grass. (Such colors were often referred to as 'memory colors'.))

    Kodak did considerable customers research on customer reproduction preferences. Digital technology was used to produce sample prints of the same scene with different color reproduction. Before digital, such test were prepared by coating a variety of emulsion color test, Such tests were rarely 'clean' - meaning you got the color change you wanted but also got things you didn't want. With the digitally produced images, once the color preferences were established, emulsion workers worked to reproduce the desired results. The results were the more highly color saturated Kodak products of the late '80s.
    This didn't include Kodachrome, did it? Wasn't its palette different?

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    The particular work I mentioned was for color negative film. However, the aim of 'accurate' color reproduction applied across the board. In all cases, film builders were limited by the dye set they used so I guess 'accurate' doesn't always mean 'perfect'.

  7. #7
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    That push for garish colors was on when I started in on Gold 400. They aimed for higher contrast and higher dye saturation. Kodachrome always had the high contrast, high saturation and we used to say it could make a garbage dump look pretty. Sorry for offending Kodachrome users, but that Fuji effect was long known by the Kodachrome people. I think Fuji learned this trick from Kodachrome and the negative film people at EK learned it back from Fuji.

    Full circle I would surmise.

    PE

  8. #8
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    And after all , with living 10 minutes walking distance to Europe's 3 biggest trading and biggest electronics markets , only Kodak film I could find is empty kodak paper packages in aim to display purpose. I could punch middle of his face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    This didn't include Kodachrome, did it? Wasn't its palette different?
    Yes one of the couplers used in the Kodachrome process was not a particularly good fit. Its presence resulted in this film's distinctive look. Some people loved it others hated it.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

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  10. #10
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Gerald,
    Can you give the couplers name and its color ?

    PE and friends,

    Was Ektachrome older than the Kodachrome , it has very strong foliage palette , oranges , orange browns , reddish oranges , most beatiful red hunter jackets and deep sky colors.

    If Fuji had been copied that , We would live in a different world.

    Umut

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