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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    David, I use the Strathmore Smooth, as I can't get the Platae. I used the cold press Watercolor. I have not found any hot press. The finish on the cold press is beautiful, but it is hard to coat. I think I showed you some examples of that.

    PE

  2. #12
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    Yes, I've seen it, and I've also tried some Arches cold press and Arches hot press for albumen and for Polaroid transfers--both very nice papers.

    PM me your address, and I can send you some Strathmore 500 1-ply Plate to experiment with. I've been buying it online from Jerry's Art-a-rama.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb View Post
    Yes, I've seen it, and I've also tried some Arches cold press and Arches hot press for albumen and for Polaroid transfers--both very nice papers.

    PM me your address, and I can send you some Strathmore 500 1-ply Plate to experiment with. I've been buying it online from Jerry's Art-a-rama.
    David, thanks, but I can order it. I have to get several types of paper support and some film supports as well.

    I really appreciate the offer.

    PE

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Donald, the tone scale is the total length of the sensitometric curve from where the curve starts to rise above dmin (toe) to where it levels off at dmax (shoulder). If the dmax is lowered, then the shoulder is closer to the toe and the tone scale is shorter. That is the definition I learned at EK with all of the diagrams and technobabble removed.

    PE
    Perhaps Donald is referring to the exposure range...

    I hear people often (just this last weekend actually) say pt-pd has a "longer" tonal scale, much like they say that Azo has a "longer" tonal scale. They seems to be confusing either the exposure range of the paper, or they percieving something that is not backed up by math/physics/optics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    Perhaps Donald is referring to the exposure range...

    I hear people often (just this last weekend actually) say pt-pd has a "longer" tonal scale, much like they say that Azo has a "longer" tonal scale. They seems to be confusing either the exposure range of the paper, or they percieving something that is not backed up by math/physics/optics.
    Whatever the correct term is, what I mean is that pt-pd and grade two Azo, for that matter, will require a camera negative with a greater density range than an equivalent grade two photographic enlarging paper. (1.65- 1.70 vs. 1.10 -1.25)

    Yet when we examine the characteristics of prints made from optimally produced negatives, pt-pd will not have the dmax of a silver print. So if you have an explanation for that, I am open to hearing it.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  6. #16
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    Donald, what are the contrasts of those two negatives though? That is what also enters into the final print. That density range may have been achived by a variation in the negative contrast which makes a big difference in the final print.

    I might also add that both Azo and Pt/Pd have a majority of their sensitivity in the UV region and visual contrast may therefore be misleading even when using a tungsten bulb.

    PE

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller View Post
    Whatever the correct term is, what I mean is that pt-pd and grade two Azo, for that matter, will require a camera negative with a greater density range than an equivalent grade two photographic enlarging paper. (1.65- 1.70 vs. 1.10 -1.25)
    This is known as the Exposure Scale. It's the x-axis in your BTZS software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Yet when we examine the characteristics of prints made from optimally produced negatives, pt-pd will not have the dmax of a silver print. So if you have an explanation for that, I am open to hearing it.
    This is the Density Scale -From Answers.com:
    A value for the range density for a photographic material that corresponds to the difference between the maximum density and the minimum density. Also known as net density.

    It's the y-axis on the BTZS software.

    You're comparing apples and oranges when you ask that question.

    The Azo and pt-pd paper have a low contrast, hence the greater exposure scale than greade 2 silver paper. Combine this with negatives that have a high density range, and you get a print of normal reproduction range.

    The Azo print will produce the neg with greater d-max than the pt-pd, but the same range of exposure scale is recorded onto the paper. (By the way, my Ilford MG IV FB with grade 00 can print that same negative exposure scale range.)

    I'm sure PE can explain the multiplication of negative and paper gradients/contrasts to come up with a normal reproduction range and how it applies to this question better than I...

  8. #18
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    Kirk;

    Thanks, you did so well, I don't think I need to add anything, unless Donald wants more detail about curve shapes.

    PE

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    This is known as the Exposure Scale. It's the x-axis in your BTZS software.



    This is the Density Scale -From Answers.com:
    A value for the range density for a photographic material that corresponds to the difference between the maximum density and the minimum density. Also known as net density.

    It's the y-axis on the BTZS software.

    You're comparing apples and oranges when you ask that question.

    The Azo and pt-pd paper have a low contrast, hence the greater exposure scale than greade 2 silver paper. Combine this with negatives that have a high density range, and you get a print of normal reproduction range.

    The Azo print will produce the neg with greater d-max than the pt-pd, but the same range of exposure scale is recorded onto the paper. (By the way, my Ilford MG IV FB with grade 00 can print that same negative exposure scale range.) This is the point that I was trying to make in my earlier comment. However your MG IV FB will not be the same print as a Pt-pd or even an Azo print. It will not have the presence that Azo will show...and it will not have the delicacy of tone that a platinum print will have.

    I'm sure PE can explain the multiplication of negative and paper gradients/contrasts to come up with a normal reproduction range and how it applies to this question better than I...
    This still does not answer the position that PE made that higher dmax is necessary for a longer tonal scale. If a material such as Azo Grade two has an exposure scale of 1.65-1.70 and a grade two material such as Nuance has a exposure scale of 1.25 with a condenser enlarger than something is darned sure different. I agree that it takes a negative of corresponding density range (high density minus low density and not minus FB +fog) to match the paper. The paper or process (in the case of Pt-pd is longer scale) or lower contrast in your description.

    By the way, PE, I do understand curve shapes so there is no need for you enlightenment on that score.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  10. #20
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    Donald;

    If two papers are identical in all ways but dmax, the paper with the lower dmax is necessarily shorter in latitude and will reproduce a shorter tone scale.

    I think that you can see the logic in that. You can demonatrate that for yourself by taking a paper curve from the Kodak web site and altering it to show the two curves.

    Without such curves, I guess this is about all I can do in the way of explanation. I hope it helps.

    There are other curves possible, but this is the simplest case. I hope it helps you.

    Use what works for you or what you like best though.

    PE

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