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  1. #11
    JOSarff's Avatar
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    Ron:

    LC has 80 volumes of FIAT reports that have either poor or most no indexing. Some were published by the Department of Commerce post WWII. Others were published by Universities, U of Michigan among them. Do you have a more preciese thought on where to look?
    There is no such thing as taking too much time, because your soul is in that picture. -Ruth Bernhard

  2. #12
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Keyword search is Agfa. The report numbers mean nothing AFAIK. That is all I can suggest.

    Sorry.

    PE

  3. #13
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Ron (PE) has posted the Agfa Lupex formulae, here's the Brovira formulae from the F.I.A.T. report, apologies it's a low res JPEG but until Sean changes the Formula (recipes)/Articles section Tables aren't possible and this needs tables so you can see how the grades differ:



    It's worth noting that the formulae weren't written & published by emulsion chemists, so there may be gaps & missing info. The F.I.A.T. reports were written by the military/Intelligence officers who didn't understand what they were writing.

    However the Lupex & Brovira formulae give a good indication of how emulsions were made and the key differences between paper grades.

    Ian

  4. #14
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    The interesting thing to me is that this is totally unlike the Brovira formulas that I have except for one point. The Rhodium Chloride concentration varies as a function of contrast. It goes up with contrast.

    It only goes to show that there are many many Brovira formulas and many many variations of the Fiat reports. I would also add that for these formulas to function, they depend on active gelatins. This is a subtle point that a non-engineer would miss. The gelatin grade in my formulas varies with contrast as well. This would be missed in a read of the above if you had not had it pointed out. And so gelatin varies from "Hart to Weich" in the series above in my formula set.

    PE

  5. #15
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Ron your point about engineers raises the major problem. These reports were written by army engineers, and they also detailed all the machinery used not just the formulae. For all I know my own father might have been involved, he had commanded an an IEME (Indian army Electrical & Mechanical Engineers) tank regiment during WWII and was in Germany from 45-47 after his British/Indian regiment became part of the Indian army.

    Different companies would have drawn their own conclusions from the F.I.A.T. reports, Pierre Glafkides published the bare bones.

    As you rightly say different Gelatin's would have made a big difference, and it's worth remembering that even Kodak films varied quite significantly depending on the plant, source of gelatin & water etc even into the early 70's. Tri-X dev times etc were different for US, Canadian or UK manufactured film.

    Ian

  6. #16
    JOSarff's Avatar
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    I found that Los Alamos has a set (or almost a set) of the FIAT reports, so tomorrow I put on my lead thong and drive up the mountain. I'll keep you posted.

    Joe
    There is no such thing as taking too much time, because your soul is in that picture. -Ruth Bernhard

  7. #17
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Ian;

    Kodak engineers from Harrow, Chalon and Rochster used to argue what the proper shape of a curve for a paper or film should be and we ended up making 3 different products with the same name. Yes, I am familiar with this problem. Interestingly enough it was more in fine points of the final coating formula rather than ingredient mix.

    As for the FIAT reports, yes, there are glaring problems which start with "hier unbekannt" (unknown here) in which chemicals came into Leverkusen or Wolfen from outside and no one knew what was in the jug. The same thing pertains at Kodak today. Many engineers do not know what is in a given ingredient. Beyond that goes the problem of temperature, addition time and other variables. Reading the formulas is like trying to read one of Wall's books. Very very cryptic and confusing and in both cases, for a specific reason. They wanted the best to be retained, not published. So, a formula in the reports is labeled "High Speed, Fine Grained Portrait Emulsion" and it by no means could be one! The only book I have found to give the parameters right is Baker. Second edition. But, even he fails to note the use (or non-use) of active gelatins.

    PE

  8. #18

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    You lose a lot more than you imagine.

    -----------
    Hummmm...

    All things considered, I think they did an amazing job.
    Actually, the government(s) did enlist people from the industry and invited people, staff from eg. Kodak to come along; they would also, on occasion, visit and querry industry... something like, to the effect of "Is there anything you want to know?" before an interrogation.

    But on a more sympathetic note (no hate mail please!) I must say I feel somewhat sorry for the German emulsion engineers, having their knowledge torn from them, striped naked and held up for the world to examine and peck at.

    I have a lot of respect for their achievments, and yes, perhaps I feel some shame in having "stolen" their knowledge...

    And, compared to what we have to be ashamed of today,
    Well, we have a lot more to be ashamed of now.

    In general though, (at least) Kodak (USA), was not particularly impressed with many of the facilities they found in use, having grown accustom to the more modern and efficient one back home.

    X-Ray

  9. #19
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to know what Kodak engineers spent time there! The data are so incomplete in most cases that it is hard to interpret and most high level Kodak engineers were involved in the Manhattan Project at the same time. So, they were elsewhere. I would have to downplay the Kodak engineers role in this.

    PE

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    It would be interesting to know what Kodak engineers spent time there! The data are so incomplete in most cases that it is hard to interpret and most high level Kodak engineers were involved in the Manhattan Project at the same time. So, they were elsewhere. I would have to downplay the Kodak engineers role in this.

    PE
    Possibly. Probably. But there was at least some presence. I guess we could try and findout what their background really was... at this point I cannot confirm their expertise, but do you think anyone other than an engineer would have been sent? Also, it is possible that someone from the local Kodak was sent along... I don't know yet.

    Ray
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 09-09-2008 at 11:41 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: omitted word inserted

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