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  1. #21
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Ah, the good-ol' I.G. Farben days.....

    I know it is about 20 years after the fact, but there is anything that might still be applicable to your search to be found in a 1961 Photo Lab Index, let me know, and I will transcribe it for you.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  2. #22
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Actually, in answer to the formulas, Kodak engineers were pretty removed from these reports and the formulas were also very similar to Kodak formulas from about 10 - 20 years earlier. Kodak had advanced quite far from the materials and processes disclosed by Agfa. The advantage here went mainly to the Soviet block of nations who had virtually no photo industry at the time. At the time of transcription, Kodak was about 10 - 20 years ahead of Agfa, mainly due to the war which actually seems to have slowed some Agfa R&D.

    The only advance made from these formulas noted by Kodak was the use of gold sensitization which gave one more stop in speed from a given emulsion. Other than that, Kodak was using advanced sulfur sensitizations with timed additions and the extrusion hopper coating system.

    Kodak was using the oxidized gelatin in the 40s while Agfa formulas still used 3 - 4 grades of active gelatin. This is not seen in Ian's formulas above, so I did some research...

    Brovira Extra Hard = Gelatine mittelreifend
    Brovira Hard = Gelatine mittelreifend
    Brovira Normal = Gelatine mittelreifend
    Brovira Special = Gelatine kraeftigreifend + Gelatine schwerreifend + Gelatine mittelreifend
    Brovira Weich = Gelatin kraeftigreifend + Gelatine schwerreifend

    A German - English dictionary will tell you that Reifend = Bloom, and you may wish to equate this with Bloom Index used today to classify viscosity and strength in gelatin, but these terms are not related.

    My Brovira formulas also include a spectral sensitizing dye (hier ist unbekannt - unknown at the plant) and an organic stabilzer added to the emulsion just prior to the coating operation.

    So, there are wide variations in just the Brovira formulas themselves.

    PE

  3. #23
    AgX
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    PE, I doubt that "nations who had virtually no photo industry" as you put it, would gain that much from those reports as nations with an existant industry would have.

    In the war time R&D went on. So far as literature looking back on that issue is concerned it seems that the gravity of work was done on colour those years.

    By the way, in 1943 Kodak Eastman and IG Farben settled a patent issue, finally giving way for Agfacolor patents.
    Business as usual...

  4. #24
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    In 1943, AFAIK, there was no business in the US conducted with Germany. IG Farben was kaput here. These companies subsidiaries in the US were nationalized and US subsidiaries over in Europe were nationalized by the Germans in their march across Europe. So, it cannot be said that technology moved one way. The Agfa scientists had all Kodak formulas taken from captured Kodak documents in Europe. People fail to point that out in the face of the FIAT reports, but it is a fact. In fact, in the face of the Kodak inactive gelatin work going back more than 10 years before 1940, it is surprising that Agfa still used active gelatins. Again, probably lack of R&D capability.

    The fact that Lupex is almost identical to Azo and that Brovira is almost identical to Kodabromide is not a coincidence.

    OTOH, Agfa R&D slowed almost to a halt due to bombing of plants and this is discussed in the FIAT reports BTW. Kodak R&D continued at a very high pace for IR films, UV films and for fine grain, high speed recon films for the US. Color was in high demand. Therefore at that time, Kodak was in production of Kodachrome film and an evolving variety of Kodacolor films and print materials.

    Agfa made color materials that used the Fischer couplers, known for years, and used Brovira emulsions in their papers. Film emulsions for color were B&W emulsions. Kodak developed an entire new technology under Hanson and Vittum.

    Konishiroku and Fuji used Agfa technology in direct technology exchanges to make their products and reverse engineered their Kodakcrhome products during the war. They both gradually converted to Kodak technology in the 60s.

    PE

  5. #25
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    It's quite probable that the F.I.A.T. reports didn't contain the most up to date Agfa emulsion information of the time. If Leica could mothball & hide the development work for the Leica IV camera, (which later became the M series), from the Nazi's and later the British & Russians then it would be very simple for Agfa to give the engineers what they thought they wanted.

    Ian

  6. #26
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    In 1943, AFAIK, there was no business in the US conducted with Germany. IG Farben was kaput here
    I have to correct myself.: It was not Eastman Kodak, but Kodak AG. But as they most probably were dependant on the mother company I doubt that this settling was a true German affair.

    Yes, you are right: That issue of Agfa gaining access to Kodak knowledge is not yet looked at.

  7. #27
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    IG Farben vs Kodak AG would have been an internal affair in Germany with a German company and a nationalized former US division. Kodak US would have taken no part in it. In the US a similar situation existed between Agfa Ansco (later Ansco then GAF) which was nationalized by the US government. The factory was in Binghamton. All German nationals that wished, were allowed to return home to Germany. Some chose to stay in the US.

    Ian;

    Yes, you are perhaps right, but what else do we have to go on but these formulas and the fact that they did "match" what was being sold right up to the date of capture. The synthetic chemistry and coating were there at the plant in-use at that time and that is indicative of some truth to the matters reported. The coatings matched the formulas and the stock of chemicals matched the throughput. These data are in one of the reports.

    In fact, the FIAT reports also contain data from other companies such as Perutz and these formulas and the coating equipment are similar to that found in the Agfa plant.

    So, no doubt that things could be hidden, but a coating machine and loads of emulsion being worked up and coated is kinda hard to hide. The chemical plants were there, and the only think hidden was the purpose of one tank car of chemicals that no one would talk about. We never found out what the use was of its contents.

    Also, we never saw the Wolfen plant. That was in the hands of the Soviets.

    PE

  8. #28
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Presumably Agfa also gained knowledge from Gevaert, and Lumiere, plus a few other long lost photo-companies in occupied Europe.

    Ian

  9. #29
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    Yes, probably, but maybe not Lumiere. IDK. The probable loss of Kodak information is what has been sorely ignored, but looks obvious to me looking at the formulas.

    The fact that Kodak pretty much dismissed Agfa technology except for the gold+sulfur indicates to me that they had a commanding lead by the end of the war.

    PE

  10. #30
    AgX
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    PE,

    to my understanding Kodak AG was not nationalized. But surely one could argue about any indirect connections to Rochester.

    But for sure is that `the Americans´ were at Wolfen. The plant was under US-Army fire in April 1945 and then occupied by these troops. And in succession examined by US and British commisions. Soviet troops and comissions only came much later in July, when Soviet troops occupied that part of Germany as regulated in the Jalta Treaty long before.
    When the US occupying troops retracted a lot of senior personnel of the filmplant went with them.

    I assume those reports gained an importance in retrospective due to statements from without Agfa or Orwo.

    The importance of those reports will diminish in the light of a statement by Dr. Wilhelm Schneider (Agfacolor), who stated to be approached by an US interrogation team in Switzerland still in 1946 for questioning on components but was afraid to cooperate due to his fear to be abducted by them.

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