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  1. #11
    keithwms's Avatar
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    DOE and NSF haven't been good to me of late, last little trickle of funding I got was DARPA, they still have some money.. But not for this kind of thing!

    Getting funding for science right now is like milking a petrified cow.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  2. #12

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    Yeah, its a bit tough. Fortunately my group is in the beginning of one grant cycle (the one that pays my paycheck) and the other one comes up this year, but shouldn't be too bad. We'll see...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&Wpositive View Post
    Wow! I had no idea that this process is still largely an unknown quantity. I guess only quantum electrochemistry has a chance at answering the question of what exactly happens when light hits film, right?
    You misunderstood.

    It was not discovered when Grant wrote his book. That is all.

    PE

  4. #14
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    Keith;

    After reading over the posts again and the Wikipedia article on latent image, I would have to say that much more is known inside of Kodak than has been published, and the same is true of Fuji. In addition, fundamental R&D was going strong in the period from 1990 - 2000. Howard James and Tadeki Tani often met in exchange visits and I had the opportunity to attend some of those and ones between Tani and Gilman as well.

    I am not a physical chemist, but I know that what they talk about within KRL is a far cry from what they publish!

    PE

  5. #15

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    So there are places where the information is known and utilized, but a lot of it is still generally unknown outside of the industry? Makes sense.

    I hope there are a few university professors who study this sort of thing, because once most of the photographic research people no longer research it, there has to be someone to take over the knowledge base, even if just to keep the information on file for the future so it doesen't get forgotten.

  6. #16
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Keith;

    After reading over the posts again and the Wikipedia article on latent image, I would have to say that much more is known inside of Kodak than has been published, and the same is true of Fuji. In addition, fundamental R&D was going strong in the period from 1990 - 2000. Howard James and Tadeki Tani often met in exchange visits and I had the opportunity to attend some of those and ones between Tani and Gilman as well.

    I am not a physical chemist, but I know that what they talk about within KRL is a far cry from what they publish!

    PE
    That's true, I agree. One of Jack's principal complaints was that certain people at Kodak knew very well that there are far greater possibilities... but there was no action on what was known.

    Anyway, I am not knowledgeable at all in this area, and I was of course relying on the ramblings of a 90+ year old man with Alzheimer's. I think he started to become acutely affected in he mid 90s. He has some later review articles but at that stage he was just collecting honors and awards and traveling around Japan. I doubt Jack himself was active past 1995 or so.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  7. #17
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    Keith;

    I could name at least 5 people in the 90s doing long range fundamental research. Some of this resulted in the 2 electron sensitization and others resulted in some unique viewpoints of stabilzing latent images and improving their capture. The result of this is that todays films have far less reciprocity failure and are subject to far less solarization with overexposure.

    They also keep better. You understand that keeping is a function of the heat treatment with sulfur + gold, but it continues in your hot glove compartment. Well, they pretty much know how to quench that nowdays.

    So, the fundamental work was ongoing, just not public! Same with Fuji.

    And yes, these are considered trade secrets if not patented.

    PE

  8. #18

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    I'm still sad that that heat developed ISO 25,000 film was never circulated. I would have LOVED to try that.

  9. #19
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    Ron, why were these products not brought forward? Was it simply that it'd cost a lot to bring them to market?
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  10. #20
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    Keith;

    I can give you a short list.

    Kodachrome 400 with T-grain technology. No interest, cancelled ~1990.

    Iridium doping, difficult due to decomposition of iridium salt/complex. It took years to perfect a method to stabilze it.

    Osmium doping, 2 electron sensitization, emulsions went bad too quickly and new methods of stabilization had to be developed. It had to be optimized for each film emulsion.

    25,000 speed film, IDK, but they expressed no interest to go beyond the initial phases of demonstration.

    3000 speed instant died due to lawsuit.

    CD-6 plans died due to lawsuit.

    Formate died due to - it didn't work out at all.

    Selenium died as it was toxic and hard to get to work.

    Tellurium died due to toxicity, but is in use by Fuji.

    What did go to market after a lot of R&D.

    Iridium, Osmium, T-grains, UF washing, automated making, scalable mixing - these are things not seen and are very tightly patented, controlled and considered manufacturing secrets. For the first 15 years at Kodak, I got about 1 patent/year, but after I went into emulsion work, nothing of my work was published outside of the company although I published about 100 internal reports during that time. As for the 15 patents, there were nearly 100 reports and 100 Invention Reports internal that never got published. So, there is an average ratio.

    Since each project took 1 - 5 years with anywhere from 2 to 9 researchers and that many or more support people such as coaters, the projects cost in the millions of dollars.

    PE

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