PN 55 Pod Chemical Analysis
Ron and all friends ;
One of my friend is dying to learn the chemical content and the ratios of
Polaroid PN 55 Pod .
I advised him to find a lab near to Polaroid Factory and get experienced help.
3 questions rises :
1- Which lab is the most used one by the Polaroid 55 manufacturing factory ?
2- What kind of analysis necessary to reveal the correct identification of the chemicals and their content ?
3- Are these chemicals are still available for the experimenter ?
He is a purist like me and want the same thing so approximitations are not satisfying.
Thank you ,
Mustafa Umut Sarac
While you're at it I'd like to know too.
Only one lab creating Polaroid materials and that's in Enschede, The Netherlands. So, buy a box from sleezebay for a song and your firstborn and have someone tear one of the pods apart and perform analysis. Or, just buy some and have fun, knowing it is in limited supply until The Impossible Project decides it is viable and profitable to make it themselves as they have some of the packfilms. Or, yeah, there's another. Email Impossible and see if they might have some materials/reference literature that they might be willing to share.
I can do Raman, IR and UV-vis in my lab, that should nail down all the components. What's it worth to ya though? I think if you just develop panatomic x in a monobath, you'll come extremely close.
You can look up the patent to something that looks a lot like Type 55 and you can find a description of same in Haist's Monobath Manual if I recall correctly. It's been discussed on the forum before.
Try Adox 100 in a well-tuned monobath, and you'll come pretty close to the Type 55 neg too. I've posted that on the forum as well.
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I look to the Enschede directory and could not locate any lab except pathology and ceramic research.
There are two universities very near to city center. May be they help but these are small countries and lots of neighbor countries also.
I will write to the factory at Enschede.
When US factories closed and is there anyone who knows US Factory 3th party laboratories ?
I had been found a lab at France which assist to Kodak.
Keith , may be you are the last chance if I could not locate the real thing.
My friend tried monobath on panatomic x if I am not wrong and he does not satisfy with the results
Thank you David , I know your excellent posts , but we want to know the real formula. Real final thing.
What's your budget? That will dictate how close you can get to the "real final thing".
It's a lot more work than just throwing some of the gel into a Raman, UV-Vis, or IR spectrophotometer. There's going to be elemental analysis with ICP or ICP-MS, some liquid or perhaps gas chromatography, some physical properties (like pH, volatile solids, viscosity and density), as well as purification steps needed to separate interfering compounds from what the test is looking for. And then someone will need to be paid to look at the data and piece it all together.
I used to dread the lunchtime phonecall at the lab (they always seems to come in between 12:15 and 12:30 for some reason) where someone thought they could save some money and make their own (fill in the blank household product) and the would call the lab and ask if we could deconstruct the item and tell them how to make it. Everyone seems to think there is some sort of Star Trek Tricorder that we just put the stuff in and the computer would tell us what was in it, and how to make it. They always seemed shocked when we would tell them it would cost hundreds of dollars to get a basic idea, and then more if we needed a more exact answer. They would usually hang up at that point...
Having worked in a commercial chemistry lab, I would expect to spend on the order of $1500 to $2500 to get a pretty close ballpark. Getting the real, final, thing will probably take 5 or 10 times more money... The more precise you want it, the more it's going to cost.
For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!
What Kirk says is true, and I (for one) definitely couldn't do it for free. I also doubt that a commercial lab would entertain an external order if they suspect that there is a current patent or something that could get them named on a lawsuit. Maybe that's not an issue any more, I don't know offhand. But you really need to dig into the patents, not only for that reason but also for all the hints they may give.
Also there is no guarantee that the spectral signatures will add up to the exact same product. What I could do, fairly easily, is rule in or rule out certain major constituents. I.e. telling whether the recipe is closer to MM1 or FX1 would be easy enough, I suspect. But note that there may be some key constituents to the process of preparing the pods that aren't even present in the final product. I would not guarantee that all I see (and can identify) in a pod is a complete recipe.
What you can do, for free, is try some of the other suggestions already mentioned... quite simple monobath recipes with standard films. N.b. monobaths require quite some tuning; it's not like you can just take a Haist recipe and get optimal results right off the bat (I certainly didn't). Haist goes to great lengths to try to identify the variables that need to be tuned.
Last edited by keithwms; 04-08-2010 at 12:09 PM. Click to view previous post history.
P.S. also note that the current (aerial) panatomic-x is likely not the same thing as what we have in type 55. All I have said (and others too, if I remember correctly), is that there appears to be a close resemblance. But the aerial stuff probably differs in terms of spectral sensitivity.... and that may have implications for how it is best developed. I'd expect aerial to be considerably more red sensitive.
Kirk and Keith , You are right , I was thinking gas chromatography was needed and it is expensive.
My friend - I am not sure he wants to be revealed - is an inventor and made good money from his reverse engineering work.
It depends on his decision .
I made reverse engineering of zildjian cymbals with the decision of US based spectrometer manufacturer and learned tons of things and wrote everything to the cymbalholic com as much as I understood from chemistry.
I think he will not openly discuss these results also.
But may be. Let me write him.
If I am not wrong , there is a huge research is going on at identification from signuteres automatically
Let me learn the budget and turn back to you to learn what can be possibly done with this money.
I wrote to Polaroid and Impossible Project to send me their internal papers if they can
I will turn back to you after the discussion.