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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Julia;

    Yes, the curve breaks with VC papers due to blending emulsions. Therefore, VC papers are difficult to do studies with when you are learning. Graded papers are clearer and easier to understand.

    Kodak Research used a density of 1.0 to represent the mid scale. The paper plant used 0.8 but subtracted out Dmin first, so the values were about the same actually. Then the toe was measured at 0.5 and 0.3 Log E left of the mid tone and the shoulder was measured to the right of the mid tone. I think that value was 0.5 offhand but without a cheat sheet, I can't remember. The actual values were adjusted based on the shape of the toe and shoulder.

    The softer the toe, the more detail in highlights and the softer the shoulder the more detail in shadows, but there are limits before things go "mushy". By definition, the eye should see things at 1.0, but it is an integrating device. Therefore it sees the entire curve when you view a photo. So, the integral should be close to 1.0. HOWEVER --- (always a joker in the deck!) most people prefer high contrast to low contrast, especially with color, and so this must be factored in. Also, lens flare lowers the contrast.

    PE

  2. #12
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    Julia,

    Welcome to the great adventure that is silver photography! You're going to really be enjoying yourself.

    Best of luck and fun; and to paraphrase Ralph's wise sentiment: in the end, it's about the image. (Go back to Ralph's post and check out his books -- great information).

    Denise

  3. #13

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    Textured Terminology...

    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Textural LER... Textural DR... IDmin/max
    Ralph,
    Sorry, I only have this one page to consult.
    What is the definition of "Textural" in these phrases?
    What does the I stand for in ID max?

    Ray

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    Ralph,
    Sorry, I only have this one page to consult.
    What is the definition of "Textural" in these phrases?
    What does the I stand for in ID max?

    Ray
    The textural range includes all tonal values from Zone II-VIII. The 'I' in IDmin and IDmax stands for 'image'.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    The textural range includes all tonal values from Zone II-VIII.
    Thanks... uh, What would that be for the zone-blind?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    Thanks... uh, What would that be for the zone-blind?
    A reason to buy the Ansel Adams trilogy, or to get one of these:

    http://www.darkroomagic.com/Darkroom...s/ZoneDial.pdf
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  7. #17

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    Ralph,


    Can you give a simple direct answer?


    Zone II-VIII represents densities from what to what?

    (Zone VIII begins at what density and Zone II ends where? )
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-23-2011 at 07:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #18
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    Ray,

    There isn't an objective density at any of the zones, at least not across all film/developer/paper combos. The Zone System presents a conceptual/subjective framework to allow pre-visualization of a scene to anticipate the best way to expose/develop/print. II-VIII are called 'textural' for the simple, direct reason that any textures in the print are visible in those zones. I is dead black, no texture. IX is spectral highlights, no texture. (Although, I work from III-VII, and bracket if I'm in doubt). The Zone system(s) are nowhere near as complicated as sometimes made out. You really should read Ansel Adams' books. Old copies are quite inexpensive. They are classics of photographic literature and great reads, if nothing else.

    d

  9. #19

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    Hi Denise.

    Happy (if belated) New Year!

    Perhaps its crusty synapses but I really have read his series...
    and, over the years, I have even owned two complete sets!!
    but they and other goodies were stolen from me,
    so now... my Adams Engine just limps along on fumes.

    Anyway, back to the beyond, I don't think mixing ANSI/ISO standards
    with zone system terminology is a good thing.

    Ralph should disagree with me....
    but I am not looking for a debate, just clarification.
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-23-2011 at 10:50 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #20
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    Ray

    Try the attached for starters, but it is only a rough guide for a normal subject brightness range without expansion or contraction development.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RegularDensities.jpg  
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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