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  1. #21
    naturephoto1's Avatar
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    Dan,

    Don't forget that many of us here at APUG have experience in macro work in multiple format sizes that may not be covered in many of the books including those by Heather Angel and John Shaw. I have several books on the subject including those mentioned as well as those in the Kodak series. We can share our knowledge and experience. I think that it may be quite valuable particularly for the beginner. Even for those of us that only do it occasionally will find it beneficial for instance when requiring bellows factors for LF and for those using cameras without inboard meters.

    Rich
    Richard A. Nelridge
    http://www.nelridge.com

  2. #22
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    Lets do it! Macro is hard enough to a beginner and usually they don't really know which questions need to be asked to get to what they need to know. The real help the forum would supply is to help them organise thier thoughts on the subject and get moving on whatever project they have in mind.
    Gary Beasley

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturephoto1
    Dan,

    Don't forget that many of us here at APUG have experience in macro work in multiple format sizes that may not be covered in many of the books including those by Heather Angel and John Shaw. I have several books on the subject including those mentioned as well as those in the Kodak series. We can share our knowledge and experience. I think that it may be quite valuable particularly for the beginner. Even for those of us that only do it occasionally will find it beneficial for instance when requiring bellows factors for LF and for those using cameras without inboard meters.

    Rich
    Exactly. I've always been interested in the idea of doing macro with the LF camera, something I have not found discussed in any book.
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  4. #24

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    Dan, while I agree with you in principle I disagree somewhat on this ... as I have before. Like you, I agree that Lefkowitz is the 'horn book' of macro photography ... also doesn't hurt to add "Image Clarity." Unfortunately, IMO 9and again I know you don't agree) I find that far from all of what Lfowitz talks about is sully applicable to LF macrophotography. Beyond that there are even more very specific technical issues that apply only or more usually to LF macro work than to that in other formats.

  5. #25

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    Anyte, there's a lot of, um, excrement masquerading as shoe polish on the web. I still think its better to look for information and fail before asking questions.

    Rich, thanks for the comments. Why do you think I recommended (in alphabetical order) Blaker, Bracegirdle, Gibson, and Lefkowitz? All present the magic formulas clearly. The beginner's problem, after seeing them, is internalizing them and applying them as required. This is independent of format.

    Robert, Rich, much of what's been written about closeup photography and photomacrography is couched in terms of 35 mm equipment. Shaw, in particular, is Nikon-centric to a faretheewell. I use Nikon gear, even so find his focus on it counterproductive. In her book on closeup work, however, Heather Angel also discusses her work on 6x6 using, IIRC, a Hasselblad. What I've done, and you should be able to do too, has been to extract the ideas presented from their (sometimes) 35 mm-centric context and then apply them to larger formats. 2x3 in my case, larger and harder to use in yours.

    Ted, as usual I agree with you in principle but not in every specific. I'm glad you mentioned Image Clarity even though I see that book as more about good practice and practical limits to what can be accomplished than about photomacrography. About the "very specific technical issues that apply only or more usually to LF," well, I see most of them as obvious to a thoughtful person who understands the basics. For me the key is understanding the basics and reasoning from them. But you may be more nearly right here than I am.

    One general comment. Its wrong to restrict discussions of technique to a single format. APUG is visited by people working in all formats and is not restricted to people working in formats larger than 35 mm. The LF contingent shouldn't forget this.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  6. #26
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
    One general comment. Its wrong to restrict discussions of technique to a single format. APUG is visited by people working in all formats and is not restricted to people working in formats larger than 35 mm. The LF contingent shouldn't forget this.

    Cheers,

    Dan
    Then why do we have seperate forums for 35mm and medium format, not to mention rangefinder forums?

    As to the orginal proposal of the macro forum, I still think it is an excellent idea. I've taught school, and heard the same questions semester after semester. This on a college level. It is not begging to ask a question. What we all forget is that people learn differently. some like the books, some are uber geeks and use computers well. Others are visual and need to see it all done first so they take workshops, others take college classes. It all varies. Yes I find many questions redundant. Yet there is a spark of interest behind that question. To belittle a person for asking a oft asked one and extinguish that spark, I would rather answer and point in the right direction. If I had a teacher/professor in college that said don't ask me questions, go to the internet and google it, I would march straight into the administration building and lodge a formal complaint. Here we are not paying for our education, but rather we subscribe to be among others with similar interests. If we ask a question so be it. I have taken many art classes over the years. Some subjects from different teachers on the same exact medium. This because not one teacher taught the exact same thing. There are new insights you learn from others. What one book as you say might have a set formula for doing it an exact way, another may differ. Yes reading is good, but nothing beats being able to discuss it with those who have tried and either succeeded or failed. It is through those experiences we can really learn valuable insights the books don't always mention. Do any of the books take into consideration what to do when you are in an area of only 2 to 3 stops difference in exposure readings? What about being in a place where it is supper humid? I coudl come up with so many weird questions, I doubt the books or the internet would have an answer too. Yet here on apug there might be a person who did experience it, and had not thought to share their experience until the question was posed. We never know what pearls of wisdom may come from a simple question posed to a large group. To this extent i heartily support the macro forum's creation.

    Yes Dan we will agree to disagree.
    Non Digital Diva

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
    Anyte, there's a lot of, um, excrement masquerading as shoe polish on the web. I still think its better to look for information and fail before asking questions.
    Aren't you deciding, by your statements against a macro forum, that a person who has to ask has not done their research? The other thing is that a lot of people are not proficient or even confident in doing online searches. I know a lot of intelligent people that no matter how they try they are not competent at doing an internet search.

    Even if the person asking is too lazy to bother reading a book or taking test shots to find out what the possibilities are, there are always people like myself that may be reading, that have done the research but will still benefit from the question having been asked. I've said it before, I rarely ask questions on APUG because I can usually find the answers in a current or an old thread. I read threads that don't even pertain to what I do because I may get something, if only a half-baked idea, from the discussion.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie
    Then why do we have seperate forums for 35mm and medium format, not to mention rangefinder forums?
    Beats me. I wasn't around when they were set up. One justification is that many, perhaps most, of the discussions in those forums focus on equipment. Having separate forums may make it easier to find discussions of interest. But when it comes to technique, I'm not sure there's much difference across them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie
    As to the orginal proposal of the macro forum, I still think it is an excellent idea. I've taught school, and heard the same questions semester after semester. This on a college level. It is not begging to ask a question. What we all forget is that people learn differently. some like the books, some are uber geeks and use computers well. Others are visual and need to see it all done first so they take workshops, others take college classes. It all varies. Yes I find many questions redundant. Yet there is a spark of interest behind that question. To belittle a person for asking a oft asked one and extinguish that spark, I would rather answer and point in the right direction. If I had a teacher/professor in college that said don't ask me questions, go to the internet and google it, I would march straight into the administration building and lodge a formal complaint. Here we are not paying for our education, but rather we subscribe to be among others with similar interests. If we ask a question so be it. I have taken many art classes over the years. Some subjects from different teachers on the same exact medium. This because not one teacher taught the exact same thing. There are new insights you learn from others. What one book as you say might have a set formula for doing it an exact way, another may differ. Yes reading is good, but nothing beats being able to discuss it with those who have tried and either succeeded or failed. It is through those experiences we can really learn valuable insights the books don't always mention. Do any of the books take into consideration what to do when you are in an area of only 2 to 3 stops difference in exposure readings? What about being in a place where it is supper humid? I coudl come up with so many weird questions, I doubt the books or the internet would have an answer too. Yet here on apug there might be a person who did experience it, and had not thought to share their experience until the question was posed. We never know what pearls of wisdom may come from a simple question posed to a large group. To this extent i heartily support the macro forum's creation.
    On the one hand, of course each student is special and unique. The best way to teach one probably isn't best for any of the others.

    On the other, what we're trying to teach is more how to solve problems than solutions to them. Simply answering questions isn't, IMO, the best way to teach problem solving. I do have a strong bias here. The teachers who taught me the most in college and grad school were the ones who asked hard questions and made me work out the answers myself. I learned less from better pedagogues who put the material across well but didn't ask hard questions than from teachers who explained poorly but asked hard questions and didn't let me and my classmates off the hook.

    I find your example of "a teacher/professor in college that said don't ask me questions, go to the internet and google it" wrong-headed. In that setting, the appropriate response is a hint or directions to a journal article or book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie
    Yes Dan we will agree to disagree.
    Amicably, I hope.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by anyte
    Aren't you deciding, by your statements against a macro forum, that a person who has to ask has not done their research?
    I don't think so. I thought I suggested search or think first, then ask if still stumped. And search includes looking in books as well as using, e.g., Google.

    Quote Originally Posted by anyte
    The other thing is that a lot of people are not proficient or even confident in doing online searches. I know a lot of intelligent people that no matter how they try they are not competent at doing an internet search.
    Searching and failing to find or understand the answer is better than giving up in advance. I do a fair amount of searching, turn up surprises. Searching, in books and over the internet alike, is a learned skill. As with all learned skills, practice builds proficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by anyte
    Even if the person asking is too lazy to bother reading a book or taking test shots to find out what the possibilities are, there are always people like myself that may be reading, that have done the research but will still benefit from the question having been asked. I've said it before, I rarely ask questions on APUG because I can usually find the answers in a current or an old thread. I read threads that don't even pertain to what I do because I may get something, if only a half-baked idea, from the discussion.
    Interesting. So in fact you look for answers. That's great. Do you also try to understand what's going on and solve problems yourself before looking?

    Cheers,

    Dan

  10. #30
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Dan yes we will be amicable about this. What I'm seeing is your arguments are based on personal observations from what you do and how you learned. It is the fallacy of ( do not quote me on how to spell this so it is phonetic) tu que qua to say it is absolute and all are lumped in in the same catogry. In other words how you learn is not how everyone learns. It may be a sore point with you that others do not do likewise, but we are again, all different. In the final bit on this subject, what does it hurt to have another forum? If it is something that you really do not want to see, there is still the ignore function. Yet I will say this right along with that, you are a wealth of knowldeg on the subject. You would be a valuable asset to such a forum. Yes it will be the same tired, to you, questions. It will grate on your nerves. It is all up to you in the end if you participate or not. Learning how ever you choose to do it is never a bad thing.
    Non Digital Diva

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