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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
    I don't think so. I thought I suggested search or think first, then ask if still stumped. And search includes looking in books as well as using, e.g., Google.
    Unless I misunderstood, you are against the creation of a macro forum ... because you think a person should look for the answers before asking for help. Either you assume people that are asking questions are not making any efforts on their own or you believe having a forum in which to ask the questions will prevent them from making any effort on their own.

    FWIW - I didn't get much sleep last night and I failed to eat breakfast this morning. I'm not sure how I have managed to sit upright all day.


    Searching and failing to find or understand the answer is better than giving up in advance. I do a fair amount of searching, turn up surprises. Searching, in books and over the internet alike, is a learned skill. As with all learned skills, practice builds proficiency.
    It's a nice theory but not everyone is wired the same and not everyone will become proficient at everything they practice. My mother cooked for many years but is still not a very good cook. My mother's cooking is only one example of many.

    So in fact you look for answers. That's great. Do you also try to understand what's going on and solve problems yourself before looking?
    Do I just shoot film until I get what I think I want? No. You (I) need a foundation in which to work from, to experiment with. If something doesn't work I don't just throw in the towel and look for someone to solve it for me. I double check my foundational information and see if perhaps I missed something or misunderstood something. I try again. If my results are the same then I start looking for answers. If my results are different from the first time then I compare the results and how I acheived them and try again. After a number of tries if I still cannot get it right I start looking for answers. This is an over-simplified answer but I don't have all night to write a book how I approach a given endeavor.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie
    Dan yes we will be amicable about this. What I'm seeing is your arguments are based on personal observations from what you do and how you learned. It is the fallacy of ( do not quote me on how to spell this so it is phonetic) tu que qua to say it is absolute and all are lumped in in the same catogry. In other words how you learn is not how everyone learns. It may be a sore point with you that others do not do likewise, but we are again, all different. In the final bit on this subject, what does it hurt to have another forum? If it is something that you really do not want to see, there is still the ignore function. Yet I will say this right along with that, you are a wealth of knowldeg on the subject. You would be a valuable asset to such a forum. Yes it will be the same tired, to you, questions. It will grate on your nerves. It is all up to you in the end if you participate or not. Learning how ever you choose to do it is never a bad thing.
    Aggie, thanks for the reply.

    Two thoughts.

    First, we've moved far away from the topic, which is whether Sean should set up a macro forum. He owns APUG.org, if he thinks the idea is good he will and if he doesn't he won't. Que sera, sera. Apologies to all for my role in this movement.

    Second, we've moved into a discussion about how people learn, motivated by a disagreement about whether its better to try to solve a problem before asking how or to ask how without first failing to solve it. We don't agree. It is in the end an empirical question. Neither of us has brought research results that bear on it forward or proposed an experiment or several. But I just can't forget the punch line to the old how to get to Carnegie Hall joke. Practice, practice.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by anyte
    Unless I misunderstood, you are against the creation of a macro forum ... because you think a person should look for the answers before asking for help. Either you assume people that are asking questions are not making any efforts on their own or you believe having a forum in which to ask the questions will prevent them from making any effort on their own.

    FWIW - I didn't get much sleep last night and I failed to eat breakfast this morning. I'm not sure how I have managed to sit upright all day.

    <large snip>

    This is an over-simplified answer but I don't have all night to write a book how I approach a given endeavor.
    I see that you've got the idea.

    The typical question about macro raised on photo.net is a short one that requires a long answer. Writing a long answer can be a pain; IMO asking for one can be an imposition. And answers to most of the questions raised there and here are fairly easy to find.

    I'm sorry that you're tired and that your blood sugar is low. Hope you sleep better tonight and eat better tomorrow.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  4. #34
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    One of the good things about APUG is the meeting of folks with a convivial attitude, and common interests. For me, at least. Talking about macro photography would be fun. So, why not ? Fellowship is a good thing.

    As far as learning, there is not a single approach to teaching which is effective for more than 33% of the population. Talking about stuff is still the best way to learn. Condemning folks to texts isn't always a good solution.

    Macro work is appealing to a much larger population than technical/academic types. Bringing sometimes stodgy topics like Photomacrography and Close-up Photography to the Rabble might be a good idea.
    .
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  5. #35

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    I am all for the forum. I have tried Macro and Tried macro and always get the opposite of what I am looking for. I have done the reading and the research, now I just need my questions answered. I think the forum would be beneficial.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  6. #36
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Well, what the heck. If we're used to shooting regular pictures, as good way to put macro into perspective is to learn about MICRO.

    One of the GREAT tesxts ( didn't I say I didn't like texts ?) is available free, on-line. Here it is: http://www.zeiss.com/de/micro/begin/home_e.nsf

    Quiz tomorrow, How to shoot a picture of a diatom.

    .
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  7. #37
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    I'm all for it. I love macro work, but I don't shoot it as much as I should.
    ____________________________________________
    Searching my way to perplexion

  8. #38

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    There is a department at Northern Arizona University that does Micro stuff. They had a HUGE blow up of an ant (I think) done by piecing together microscopic photos of the ant. They tried to explain it all to me but it went over my head, but the collage was way cool.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  9. #39

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    I think a macro forum would be interesting. I think more different categories (as I think is planned) would be a good thing, and would make accessing information easier.

    On the question of whether questions should be posted - Sometimes I have felt it's possibly a bit annoying to see a recently-answered question come up again, when a little searching could have got the questioner the info they want. Then I've seen how more often than not, there are fresh points from people who didn't see the first thread. I've come to think it doesn't matter, it's the nature of the beast - a kind of dynamic perpetual regeneration, which is positive. Isn't information-sharing what forums are all about? I don't see that a macro forum is different from any other... If it is felt by anyone to be time-wasting, there is no reason to respond, and a separate forum is especially easy to ignore. Books are useful of course, but the internet is a major resource - and doesn't that mean people continuing to ask and answer questions on forums such as this, so that up-to-date info is available for any google search? If some other forums' threads do leave something to be desired, then maybe it's an opportunity to make some better ones.
    Cate

  10. #40
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Cate, good points all.

    We can research fairly well by highlighting the target forum, so we're off to a good start. This leaves the researcher to wade through entire threads, which can be tedious. Maybe we can improve the archiving / researching. But that's another issue.

    My own interest in macro is making expressive rather than representative pictures, shooting natural objects ( flowers, grasses, and stones ) and printing them in platinum or albumen. I found an antique B&L Photomacroscope some time ago, with - of all things - a 5x7 camera.

    One of the differences between using the Macroscope and an LF camera is that I move the specimen stage in 3 axes rather than the camera ! The rest is like catalog, or table top work... sometimes resorting to semi reflecting mirrors, and tiny spotlights on big studio strobes ! Fun.
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

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