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  1. #31
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Then again we could look at this this way:

    A film photographer of some reknown successfully sells a large Cibachrome to a major museum and announces this sale on APUG.

    Fellow APUG'ers congratulate him and revel in how the fine arts world has recognized the inherent value of film-based work.

    Nah. That would never happen here. We wouldn't want to see a film photographer get a big sale and obtain major recognition - would we?


  2. #32
    billschwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    Actually it's an original print by Weston that was auctioned and it was taken in Westchester, NY not Long Island.
    No... It was Stiechen....

    Bill

  3. #33
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab View Post
    No... It was Stiechen....

    Bill
    You're correct - and it's even rarer.

    But it's just a "photo" according to one poster. So, obviously not worth much - who would buy such a thing?

  4. #34
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I find the 1mil sale , hard to believe as well as mind blowing, I have always thought that the high prices paid for Colour Images on RA4 and even backlight Ciba quite suprising. What is perplexing to me is that it is widley know that the viewing shelf life of a colour print made from negative is somewhere between 15years and 40years give or take on either side due to viewing conditions. The fact that colour negatives have the same shelf life as the print is not widley known.
    this is where I find a huge problem with the sale of this media, not only will the print fade within an artists productive lifetime but as well so does the negative.
    I got out of a successful family run wedding portrait opportunity in 1978 for this exact reason , and some of the people who continued with colour and huge expensive wedding package sales are now in deep shit, because all their lifes work and the clients images are fading off the wall.
    Prime example , go into any High School in North America and look at the Principle walls of portraits. You will see the Black and White Images still in good shape that were taken before the switch to colour. All the images up until lets say 8 years ago are in serious fade condition and the last two principles prints look good. *how long *
    This fading, is the only factor I find hard to comprehend in purchases of this magnitude. Both Burtinsky and Wall are very, very talented artists and I am happy for their success.
    I think this is why I am drivin to print fibre black and white prints and try to learn the colour gum over platinum.
    I think that a permanent colour process would be a great gift to preserve the images of these talented working photographers.

  5. #35
    naturephoto1's Avatar
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    Hi Bob,

    Unfortunately beyond the exteme cost, the proprietary processes that were used by EverColor (now out of business) and the equivalent to make pigment type color prints were at best very difficult to prepare consistanly. I only had 8 ever made of an image in my APUG Gallery (and my avatar) based on a 16" X 20". The images and image quality were beautiful and outstanding; they have yet to be matched by prints coming off of LightJet or Chromira. I have 5 of the 8 left. I have no idea what the selling price should be. When Henry Wilhelm had tested the process, he suggested as I recall a life expectancy of 250??, 500?? years. He suggested that the epoxys holding the pigments together would fall apart before the pigments would fade.

    Rich
    Last edited by naturephoto1; 12-17-2006 at 10:06 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Richard A. Nelridge
    http://www.nelridge.com

  6. #36
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Hi Rich

    I made some ultrastables years ago at Maine Workshops, at that time I was overly enthused about the process. Unfortunately the tissues became extinct and extremely complicated to make oneself.
    I have been talking with Kevin at Bostick and Sullivan and they are introducing Y, M , Cy and K tissues next year and I am going to make a go of trying this process with a lot of help from Sandy King as a mentor.
    I am not sure if I will be able to separate the film properly on my lambda and as well get all the complicated steps to make a good print.
    But this is one of my career goals to be able to make permanent colour prints in a controlled environment with repeatable results.
    I don't think I will approach this project from a commercial interest but realistically only from a personal fufillment point of view.
    All colour workers should consider the life expectancey of their work , and do not believe the marketing hype associated with all the new colour processes promising longevity but delivering much less.
    I do offer all the colour end processes at my lab which kind of contradicts my personal beliefs but in the end , it helps pay the bills so that I can continue in niche projects.

  7. #37
    BWKate's Avatar
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    I know this photographer and he has worked very hard at his art his whole life. He's quite modest and in the last dozen or so years he has started to win some major art awards.

    I know it's hard to justify and quantify vast amounts of money for one piece of work. As far as I'm concerned he deserves his success and I'm happy for him.

  8. #38
    George Papantoniou's Avatar
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    I thought dye destruction prints (cibachromes) were supposed to last much more than 30 years... (100 years was the life expectancy I once heard they have)...

    Dye transfer was supposed to be really long lasting, but now it's gone (thanks to Kodak, I think). There might be some people who still have a small stock of the film that is necessary to make colour separation matrices for the Dye Transfer technique (Ctein, for example).

    As for the price payed, I saw a few Jeff Wall prints in Paris (in the late '80's) and was impressed indeed. I think that it's good for the art market to move in that direction (for photographs to be sold at those prices) because it makes people undestand the value of art in general. I think that since some photographs (by Weston, Stieglitz, Le Gray etc) have reached huge selling prices at auctions (up to a million US$, maybe more) people have been more respectful to photograply in general and more people have understood that photography is a form of art that could be compared to the "noble" ones, like painting or sculpture.

  9. #39
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    Hi George,

    Unless things have changed, the last estimates that Henry Wilhelm had for Ilfochromes was 29 years and Fuji Crystal Archive Photo paper was 60 years. But all of Wilhelm's tests have been done done as accelerated testing, under his set of guide lines for the number of lumens of light at a specific temperature, relative humidity, for a certain number of hours per day. This is not necessarily accurate for the results, but it is useful for the relative comparison of the life expectancy of the images. Also, as I recall, Wilhelm had an estimate of 1000 years dark storage of Ilfochrome, but people normally do not keep their images in the dark.

    Rich
    Richard A. Nelridge
    http://www.nelridge.com

  10. #40
    George Papantoniou's Avatar
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    Hi Rich... this is impressive... if Ilfochrome only lasts 29 years, how long will "normal" (not Fuji's crystal archive) C-prints last then ? I mean, if they were so fragile, how come some pictures my mom has on her kitchen shelves are still there (not faded) since 1980 ? I know, some have faded and some not. And UV plays a major role (more than visible light), so if the spot where they're hanged or placed is out of the reach of dangerous E-M radiation, then they'll last longer. But I am sure the UV emitted by the FL tubes Jeff Wall places in his backlights must be absorbed by some filter he uses in the acetate that diffuses the light (and is placed behind the print). So, his prints will probably last more than 29 years on display at the museum (unless they place them in front of a window !!).

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