Filmotec/Orwo B&W Reversal processing

[Ian Grant]

First Developer ORWO 829
Solution 1:
Water (35°C) 750.0 ml
Sodium sulphite 25.0 g
Phenidone 0.2 g
Hydroquinone 10.0 g
Sodium carbonate 20.0 g
Potassium bromide 6.0 g
Potassium thiocyanate 6.0 g
Solution 2:
Water (20°C) 125.0 ml
Sodium hydroxide 5.0 g
After cooling down solution 1 pour
solution 2 into it and
Make up with water to 1 litre


Bleaching bath ORWO 833
Water 750.0 ml
Potassium dichromate 10.0 g
Sulphuric acid. conc. (caution) 15.0 ml
Water to 1 litre


Clearing bath ORWO 835
Water 750.0 ml
Sodium sulphite 90.0 g
Water to 1 litre


Second Developer ORWO 842
Solution 1:
Water (35°C) 750.0 ml
Sodium sulphite 25.0 g
Phenidone 0.2 g
Hydroquinone 10.0 g
Sodium carbonate 20.0 g
Potassium bromide 6.0 g
Solution 2
Water (20°C) 125.0 ml
Sodium hydroxide 5.0 g
After cooling down solution 1 pour
solution 2 into it and
Make up with water to 1 litre


Fixing bath ORWO 300
Water 750.0 ml
Sodium thiosulphate 5 hydrate 200.0 g
Potassium Metabisulphite 20.0 g
Water to 1.0 litre

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Processing at 20°C:
Times Minutes:Seconds

1 First development (ORWO 829) 5:15 mins 20° ± ½°
2 Washing -running ater 2 mins
3 Bleaching (ORWO 833) 2 mins
4 Washing - running water 1 min
5 Clearing (ORWO 835) 1:30 mins
6 Washing - running water 1 min
7 Second exposure approx. 8.000 lxs
8 Second development (ORWO 842) 2:40 mins 20° ± ½°
9 Washing - running water 30 seconds
10 Fixing (ORWO 303) 1:30 mins
11 Washing - running water 3 minutes


This process is designed for the Commercial Reversal processing of Filmotec Movie film. But should work well with any modern B&W film. You will need to experiment with the first development time and EI to find the best combination for your purposes.

The First Developer & 2nd Developer are identical except for the Potassium Thiocyanate in the first.

[dr5chrome]

..of all these public/published recipes posted here, this is likely the best one to start with. Modifications should be made depending on the film used.

Reversal processing is with the effort especially if you are scanning the film.

regards
dw

www.dr5.com

[Alessandro Serrao]

..of all these public/published recipes posted here, this is likely the best one to start with. Modifications should be made depending on the film used.

Reversal processing is with the effort especially if you are scanning the film.

regards
dw

www.dr5.com

Why?

[Ian Grant]

It goes against all DW's own recommendations in a forthcoming publication where he advises not to use a solvent in the first developer, thiosulphate or thiocyanate. However the film manufacturers have rather more expertise in the field of Reversal processing, so this a modern modern/current 1st Developer recommend by Filmotec. However it's remarkably similar to ID-62 (used 1+1) + Thiocyanate (instead of Thiosulphate), plus additional bromide instead of Benzotriazole.

Ian

[dr5chrome]

...wow, i just looked back on this one. It would be best if you didn't put words in my mouth Mr Grant. ! It sounds like you are a little jealous. It's one thing to post already published Recipes, then create one from scratch like we did... and dont worry your little head, one day we will publish dr5.

I didn't say anything other than this post of yours might have some promise. I also don't care who you got this gibberish from, it's still a bad Recipe! Your attitude is unprofessional, unbecoming and personally I don't think you know what you are talking about. Why don't you post something original rather than what you find in a book? I don't appreciate your little childish games here! Do you have anything better to do? I have more knowledge on this subject than most and certainly than you.

If you would bother to be professional and ask why I make the claims I do you would understand the facts and understand the 'whole' picture, it's called a 'new' way of thinking and discovery, something you are too plugged up to figure out.

regards

dw

It goes against all DW's own recommendations in a forthcoming publication where he advises not to use a solvent in the first developer, thiosulphate or thiocyanate. However the film manufacturers have rather more expertise in the field of Reversal processing, so this a modern modern/current 1st Developer recommend by Filmotec. However it's remarkably similar to ID-62 (used 1+1) + Thiocyanate (instead of Thiosulphate), plus additional bromide instead of Benzotriazole.

Ian

[Ian Grant]

...wow, i just looked back on this one. It would be best if you didn't put words in my mouth Mr Grant. !

David, you really should try reading your own words in the 3rd Edition of The Darkroom Cookbook. Chapter 13 page 141: "However, going against tradition David Wood recommends not using anything with thiocyanate or thiosulfate in the first developer. Instead, he recommends the use of Kodak D-11. All three first developer formulas are given in Formulas: Reversal Processing."

So read that again, if I say "It goes against all DW's own recommendations in a forthcoming publication where he advises not to use a solvent in the first developer, thiosulphate or thiocyanate" I'm not wrong. I think your relevant words are "David Wood recommends not using anything with thiocyanate or thiosulfate in the first developer.".

So you see I haven't put any words in your mouth.

In fact tradition is divided as to whether to add a silver solvent, there are many formulae that add one but also quite a few that don't.

In your rant I notice that yet gain you state "I also don't care who you got this gibberish from, it's still a bad Recipe". All I'll say to that is that according to you all the major Photographic companies published and widely used formulae are rubbish, OK some of these are older now discontinued processes from companies who ceased trading, but others like this Orwo formula are still in daily use, and they all share a lot of similarities.

It would be more professional on your part if you stopped constantly make sniping personal attacks when people don't agree with your narrow minded and blinkered approach to Reversal Processing. No-one is rubbishing your DR5 process, just stating that there are a number of alternative avenues that people can pursue.

Ian

[Ian Grant]

Filmotech are the modern incarnation of ORWO, which in turn evolved from the East German parts of Agfa after WWII. They work closely with Calbe who now produce what was once Orwo chemistry.

This Formula is current & up to date, and is recommended for the Reversal processing of their Motion picture films. So it beggars belief that you constantly refer to respected Manufacturers recommended formulae as "Bad Recipes", particularly when you quite obviously haven;t tried many of them.

You have done the same in a number of other threads, despite the fact that Ron Mowrey (PE) has told you they worked and were used in Hollywood labs for years.

Sometimes to go forward you have to go backwards first, and so it's vital when doing research to know what's been done before. The truth is that all these Formulae will work, but some will obviously be far better than others.

Many people here on APUG are interested in these formulae and a number have requested I post more. It gives other people some ideas of where to start their own experiments.

Ian

[Alessandro Serrao]

Mr. Grant,
in your recipe do you think it's feasible to replace the thiocyanate with common thiosulfate?

I'm trying to standardize my process so to not depends on, say, first developer availability. I'm currently using Tetenal Dokumol as the first and second developer.

The thing I've noticed is that omitting the silver halide solvent in the first developer one loose effective film speed. Other than that I didn't noticed anything unusual.

[Ian Grant]

Alessandro, there are 3 silver solvents which are typically used in B&W reversal first developers, Thiosulphate, Thiocyanate and now DTOD which is C6H14O2S2 3,6-Dithiaoctane-1,8-diol. Of these Thiosulphate is the least common and it's not used in any modern commercial developers (1940's onwards), and only Ilford recommend using it, in their reversal processing data sheet.. At one time Ilford recommended using the first developer from the Dufaycolor process for B&W reversal, that uses Thiocyanate.

I've not used Dokumol but it's quite similar to Ilford PQ Universal or May & Baker (Champion) Suprol. Suprol was widely used for commercial B&W reversal processing and there was a very detailed data-sheet available in the 70's, you had to add 4 gm's per litre of Sodium or Potassium Thiocyanate to a 1+4 working solution.

So if you can standardise on a good readily available normal PQ print developer use it at twice the normal working strength, ie 1+4 instead of 1+9, and try it with Thiosulphate & then Thiocyanate but you'll almost certainly get better results with the Thiocyanate.

The Orwo/Filmotec 829 first developer is a similar PQ developer but has approx double the Hydroquinone and increased Bromide which will give give better contrast & Dmax. Potentially it looks to be an excellent First developer.

Somewhere I have a short trouble shooting guide for reversal processing, I'll post here on APUG in the next few days.

Ian

[Alessandro Serrao]

Alessandro, there are 3 silver solvents which are typically used in B&W reversal first developers, Thiosulphate, Thiocyanate and now DTOD which is C6H14O2S2 3,6-Dithiaoctane-1,8-diol. Of these Thiosulphate is the least common and it's not used in any modern commercial developers (1940's onwards), and only Ilford recommend using it, in their reversal processing data sheet.. At one time Ilford recommended using the first developer from the Dufaycolor process for B&W reversal, that uses Thiocyanate.

I've not used Dokumol but it's quite similar to Ilford PQ Universal or May & Baker (Champion) Suprol. Suprol was widely used for commercial B&W reversal processing and there was a very detailed data-sheet available in the 70's, you had to add 4 gm's per litre of Sodium or Potassium Thiocyanate to a 1+4 working solution.

So if you can standardise on a good readily available normal PQ print developer use it at twice the normal working strength, ie 1+4 instead of 1+9, and try it with Thiosulphate & then Thiocyanate but you'll almost certainly get better results with the Thiocyanate.

The Orwo/Filmotec 829 first developer is a similar PQ developer but has approx double the Hydroquinone and increased Bromide which will give give better contrast & Dmax. Potentially it looks to be an excellent First developer.

Somewhere I have a short trouble shooting guide for reversal processing, I'll post here on APUG in the next few days.

Ian

I've got excellent results, at least to my eyes, using Tetenal Eukobrom and Dokumol with 2,5g of thiosulphate in 250ml of working solution.

Dunno why thiocyanate will yield better results than thiosulphate.