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  1. #1
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Modern Rodinal Substitutes

    The formula for Rodinal R09 has never been officially published by Agfa. In the "Agfa" Book of Photographic Formulae, published by the Berlin Aniline Company in 1910, the company tells us:

    As "AgfA"-Rodinal contains only traces of carbonic alkalies, the use of distilled water for dilution is not necessary. In connection with the use of "Agfa"-Rodinal the following remarks should be carefully noted:

    In addition to neutral sulphite and water "Agfa"-Rodinal contains only an alkaline salt of Paramidophenol, but no excess of caustic alkali.

    PDF Rodinal 1910

    However it's possible to make formulae that's close to the current versions.

    Original Rodinal contained p-Aminophenol (once called Paramidophenol by Agfa) and this was formed by precipitation of the free base from p-Aminophenol hydrochloride using sulphite and carbonate (hence Agfa's comment "contains only traces of carbonic alkalies".


    The formula for Rodinal has changed and evolved presumably as high grade p-Aminophenol free base became commercially available, allowing Rodinal to be completely free of carbonates.

    J. Desalme published a " Concentrated Paraminophenol Developer of the Rodinal Type" in 1913, this was later included in L.P. Clerc's book "Photographic Theory and Practice".

    Sodium Carbonate & Sodium Sulphite are added to a solution of p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride which precipitates the free base, which is filtered and collected.

    The paste of p-Aminophenol free base is then added to a solution of Sodium Metabisulphite and Sodium Hydroxide added until all the free base is dissolved, finally a small amount of Metabisulphite is added until the first crystals of p-Aminophenol free base begin to form again.

    This mirrors Agfa's own description of early Rodinal, and accounts for the traces of carbonates, and the "no excess of caustic alkali". (J. Desalme was a photographic chemist specialising in aminophenols and other developing agents particularly for colour processing).

    Now we reach a point of contention "Free base" or "Hydrochloride", genuine Rodinal has always been made using the Free base of p-Aminophenol . (50g of p-Aminophenol is equivalent to 66.2 g p-Aminol hydrochloride). There is no evidence to suggest that Rodinal of any form has ever contained p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride.

    The MSDS sheets for both Rodinal and Calbe R09 show clearly that both developers contain p-Aminophenol free base (CAS 123-30-8) and not p-Aminophenol hydrochloride (CAS 51-78-5).

    Making a Rodinal substitute with p-Aminophenol Hydrochoride will leave free chlorides in the solution, and neutralise more Hydroxide, the amount of developing agent would need to be increased along by a factor of 1.33 and also more KOH added.

    Data on early Rodinal is hard to find but in a thread on Photo.Net "Edward Zimmermann" wrote:

    The formulas for Rodinal, resp. R09 (1964 to present), have never been published. The patent is for Paramidophenol developers and there are many recipes making the rounds since the late 1800s. One of the most famous is attributed to Eder. From my copy of Spörl and Neumann, "Fotografisches Rezeptbuch" 1943 edition, p.50):

    N16:

    • Paramidophenol 50g
    • Kaliummetabisulfit [Potasium Metabisulfite] 150g
    • Wasser 625ccm (ml)

    Then a solution of

    • Ätznatron [Sodium Hydroxide] 215g
    • Water 500ccm (ml)

    is slowly added untill the cloudyness breaks. According to the book it says this is typically around 350ml.
    Then the solution is diluted with water to make 1 liter.

    My note: 350ml of the Sodium Hydroxide solution contains 150.5 gms Sodium Hydroxide.

    The same formula was published in the British Journal Photographic Almanac (1910 & earlier) as:

    Paramidophenol.
    ONE-SOLUTION

    Potassium metabisulphite 300g
    Distilled water 1 litre
    Paramidophenol 100g

    Dissolve in the above order and add gradually:
    Caustic soda or potash to dissolve the precipitate first formed.

    For use, dilute 1 part. with 10-20 parts of water.

    No final volume of solution is given but it's likely to be 2 litres if you want the equivalent of early Rodinal.

    It's important to note that these sources clearly indicate the use of the free base, as they go on to also include p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride film developers. These are in the 1910 "Agfa" Book of Photographic Formulas, the 1910 BJP Almanac and Ed Zimmermann's book all from quite different sources & countries.

    However other versions of this formula appear in various books from the early 1900's onwards, but using p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride, because of the difference in Molecular Weight and the effects of the additional Hydrochloride they won't be quite the same. Dr M. Andresen, of Agfa, who discovered & patented p-Amaninopheol and designed Rodinal published it himself in the "AGFA Photo-Handbook" he did not claim it was similar to Rodinal, listing it as - Formula 21: Concentrated single solution. (As above proportions but using p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride).

    L.P.Clerc and others indicate that Potassium Metabisulphite was the preferred source for the Sulphite in Rodinal, Potassium salts are used in preference to Sodium because of their greater solubility in water which becomes far more important in concentrated developer solutions. Metabisulphite and Hydroxide form Sulphite in solution.

    At some point before or during WWII Agfa began using Potassium Sulphite and also adding Potassium Bromide and an anti-foggant to Rodinal. It's entirely possible that Agfa modified Rodinal so that it was more suitable for roll & particularly 35mm films which became cfommon in the 1930's.

    Some have made the assumption that this formula might be "Classic Rodinal" but if we compare it to a modern MSDS's it's only close s to Calbe's R09 MSDS for the p-Aminophnol.

    P-Aminophenol 50g - 5%
    Potassium Metabisulphite 150g - 15%
    Sodium Hydroxide - very approx 150g - 15%
    Water to 1 litre

    Calbe R09 MSDS

    P-Amininophenol 5%
    Potassium Sulphite 30%
    Potassium Hydroxide 4%

    However Potassium Metabisulphite is quite acidic in solution and will neutralize a considerable proportion of the Hydroxide. Replacing it with Potassium Sulphite cut's the amount of Hydroxide needed very substantially. Potassium Metabisulphite 5% solution has a pH of 3.8 - 4.6, while a similar Potassium Sulphite solution has a pH of 9 - 10

    Only one parameter seems to stay constant from early published alternatives through to Orwo/Calbe R09 - the fact that Rodinal is a 5% solution of p-Aminophenol free base in a sulphite solution, with no excess of alkali. It's reported that the Calbe product usually has a few crystals of the free base in the bottom of the bottle, which indicates no excess of Hydroxide.

    The British RAF report into the "Agfa Film Factory - Wolfen" reported by G.C. Brock, London : H.M.S.O. gives a formula for Rodinal as:

    Dissolve 34 kg of para-aminophenol in 340 litres of water. Add 558 kg of a 30% solution of potassium sulphite at 55C followed by 50 kg of a 34% potassium hydroxide solution, then 5.52 kg of potassium bromide in a little water. Add 42 g P.1347 (an Agfa-specific anti-foggant). Filter and allow to stand for 14 days.

    Knowing the Specific Gravities etc this seems to be around:

    p-Aminophenol 34kg
    Potassium Sulphite 128.08kg
    Potassium Hydroxide 12.57 kg
    Potassium Bromide 3.75 kg

    We aren't given a final volume, but if we relate this to the 5% p-Aminophenol of the Calbe MSDS this works out as:

    p-Aminophenol 5%
    Potassium Sulphite 19%
    Potassium Hydroxide 1.85%
    Potassium Bromide 0.77%

    But the Calbe/Orwo version of R09 is the pre-WWII formula and it's MSDS is

    p-Aminophenol 5%
    Potassium Sulphite 30%
    Potassium Hydroxide 4%
    Potassium Bromide - not included (below 1%)

    Unfortunately we can't really completely trust the RAF report, none of the Allied F.I.A.T. reports about Agfa products is entirely accurate, after all some Agfa employees were former members of the National Socialist Party (Nazi's). There is insufficient Potassium Hydroxide to react with the p-Aminophenol free base, and it is possible the resulting solution was then adjusted until the free base had just fully dissolved.

    Patrick "Gadget" Gainer has published "EZ Rodinal" which in terms of its ratio of p-Aminophenol to Potassium Hydroxide is probably close to Calbe R09 as there will be no excess of Hydroxide, the weights in brackets have been scaled to give a concentration of 5% p-Aminophenol.

    EZ Rodinal

    To 400 ml water, add:
    Sodium sulfite (anhyd) 85 g (106.3)
    p-Aminophenol base 40 g (50 g)
    Stir well. Add
    Sodium hydroxide 13.8 g or Potassium hydroxide 19.2 g (24g)
    Add water to make 500 ml. (1 litre)

    If EZ Rodinal; is adjusted a little further by adding 300 g of Potassium Sulphite in place of the Sodium Sulphite, some Potassium Bromide added plus some Benzotriazole and Potassium Hydroxide added slowly until the free base just dissolves

    EZ Rodinal New (Calbe R09 substitute)

    To 800 ml water, add:
    p-Aminophenol base 50 g
    Potassium sulphite (anhyd) 300 g
    Potassium hydroxide 24 g
    Potassium Bromide 0.8 g
    Benzotriazole 1% 10 ml
    Water to make 1 litre)

    This would be a lot close to the pre War formula and Calbe RO9, although this is itself now being made in a more concentrated form so that the dilutions & dev times are more comparable to Agfa /A&O Rodinal (post 1964)

    Patrick's second Rodinal substitute formulae is close to the Bayer/Agfa/A&O MSDS data-sheets for modern Rodinal:

    p-Aminophenol 4.1% (A&O)
    Potassium Sulphite 30-40%
    Potassium Hydroxide 2.7% (A&0)
    Potassium Bromide 1-5%
    Anti-foggant - not specified
    pH 14

    Gainer Rodinal Substitute

    To about 750 ml of water at room temperature, add
    p-Aminophenol 38 g
    Sodium sulfite (anh) 160 grams
    Sodium hydroxide 23 grams
    Water to 1 liter.

    This is on the right track, you need to use the free base and an excess of Hydroxide unlike the older R09 formula which has nearly 20% more p-Aminophenol and also requires using at a higher concentration to get equivalent results.

    In a post about Patrick's version a comment was made about the pH at 1:50 being roughly 11.6, Agfa Rodinal has a stock concentrate pH of 14 and a dilute pH of 11.55 so if this is the case Patrick's formula is about right, except too little Sulphite and there's no Bromide or anti-foggant.

    Agfa's modern Rodinal 1964 onwards uses an excess of Hydroxide and as a consequence is more active despite the lower level of p-Aminophenol than the previous formulae. Calbe R09 concentrate has a pH of 11.8.

    This is what I would use as a starting point for a good modern substitute:

    Rodinal Substitute

    p-Aminophenol.(free base) ................... 41 g
    Potassium sulphite (anh) ..................... 348 g
    Potassium Hydroxide ........................... 27 g
    Potassium Bromide ............................. 10 g
    Benzotriazole 1% ............................... 10 ml
    EDTA Na4 (optional) ........................... 6 g
    Water to make .................................. 1 litre.

    If necessary adjust to pH 14

    Some notes:
    The balance of the Bromide & Benzotriazole may need adjusting upwards..
    The mixed developer should be left a couple of weeks before use.

    Contrary to what has been written in some books Rodinal has always used the free base of p-Aminophenol although in the early days this was prepared from the Hydrochloride first.

    Ian

  2. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    See the comment by John Douglas (Nashville, TN USA). Isn't he's the J&C Photo guy?
    I said this earlier in the thread. I understand I had the wrong person here associated with J&C Photo. John Douglas is NOT the J&C Photo guy.

    My mistake.
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  3. #132

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    Kirk, the John Douglas you mean is John S. Douglas, who was a mainstay of photography newsgroups in the 90s. One of his websites is www.darkroomphotography.com. I guess he doesn't have time to be on the net much anymore. I've known him for years, and he certainly knows I have never worked for Kodak! But his quote (which he will I presume have made when tired) has pursued me. Some people think I ought to be upset by this. I'm not. As misinformation, it doesn't rate high on my list of concerns. [...] As there is presumably no way of getting this quote out of Google, I don't really see what I can do about it. OK, gotta run - -
    Last edited by David A. Goldfarb; 08-30-2009 at 10:06 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: As discussed with Sean.

  4. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by billtroop View Post
    Kirk, the John Douglas you mean is John S. Douglas, who was a mainstay of photography newsgroups in the 90s. One of his websites is www.darkroomphotography.com.
    That link looks like some generic website the really has no useful content and just wants to sell you something. It's registered in the Cayman Is. too - sounds suspicious.

    Maybe you meant www.darkroompro.com

    The way to get that out of Google is to get it fixed on Amazon as that's where the quote originates. You could email John S. Douglas about seeing if he can edit his comment to be more accurate. Afterall, he helped with the book and I bet he'd be more than happy to help fix it. (Funny how John didn't mention being associated with the book himself.)

    And if that doesn't work, you can always go to the Amazon site and you can click on the link that's on the page of reviews of your book that allows you to "report" the customer review to Amazon. I'm sure they can help you out.

    It's your book that's being sold afterall, it would be good to have info associated with you be unambiguous.
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  5. #134
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    The late John S Douglas

    About 2 or 3 weeks ago I emailed John S Douglas, (nothing to do with this thread) and had no reply. Now I know why, someone has just sent me this link and suggested that I should update participants in this thread:

    John S Douglas


    Ian

  6. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    [Re: KOH pH...] here's the way to calculate it.

    A 3% solution is about 0.53M KOH.
    Calculate pOH first:
    pOH = -log10[OH-]
    Kirk,
    How can I Calculate -log10 [whatever] on line?
    I no longer have a scientific calculator...

    Thanks

    Ray
    ---------
    ps, Sorry for the location of ths post... it should be in part 2 very confused... sorry ...

  7. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Wow - that was a foolish, horrific, and tragic accident. My condolences go to his family.

    I guess John's comments will stand on Amazon then.
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  8. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    Kirk,
    How can I Calculate -log10 [whatever] on line?
    I no longer have a scientific calculator...

    Thanks

    Ray
    ---------
    ps, Sorry for the location of ths post... it should be in part 2 very confused... sorry ...
    Ray - I'll reply in part II of the threads.
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  9. #138

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    For part II of this thread/reply, go to:
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum223/...part-ii-8.html
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  10. #139
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Dr Shneour, or as he likes to be called now Professor Shneour is a dead end. I've had 3 email conversations now and it's quite obvious he has very little knowledge of Rodinal.

    That's not to disparage any analysis he might have done, he just feels it's unimportant, he has better things to think about

    So read what you want into this post. Any book that quotes from such an unwilling reference is not worth buying

    Ian

  11. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Dr Shneour, or as he likes to be called now Professor Shneour is a dead end. I've had 3 email conversations now and it's quite obvious he has very little knowledge of Rodinal.

    So read what you want into this post. Any book that quotes from such an unwilling reference is not worth buying

    Ian
    Ian,
    Have you been frightening the mortals on planet Earth again?
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 10-16-2009 at 11:26 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Be free of all deception, Be safe from bodily harm
    Love without exception, Be a saint in any form
    (Patti Smith)



 

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