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  1. #1
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Modern Rodinal Substitutes Part II

    Apologies for having to start a new thread but I can't read or even access the first to reply to posts.

    So with a bit of telepathy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    Well, there's a problem there, as it's really hard to measure pH accurately when it gets much above 12.5 or so. You have to start getting special electrodes and the like.

    But for MSDS work, it doesn't have to be too precise.
    __________________
    Kirk

    A point that's being missed is that A&O give a figure of 2.7% Potassium Hydroxide not 3% in older Agfa MSDS.

    The pH is around 14 sure, but the actual requirement is the pH of the working dilute solution rather than the concentrate which is given elsewhere as pH 11.55, which I commented on in the first post of the thread.

    Way back Ron (PE) mentioned adjustments to Rodinal before bottling, the question we need to ask is are they adjusting on the basis of the concentrate, or also doing some tests on a dilute sample, as this will be a far more accurate indicator.

    Can someone please post a link to this continuation on the original post.

    Ian

  2. #31
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Barry Thornton in The Edge of Darkness raves about Perceptol 1+3, it does give high acutance and fine grain. It's a good combination brilliant with FP4.

    But I have to say that the APX100 / Rodinal combination produces some of the finest grain 35mm images I've seen with superb tonality, this is because the two are designed for each other by Agfa.

    Crawley makes a point of saying certain Ilford developers give outstanding results with Ilford films but weren't as good with some Kodak films. Ron Mowrey (PE) has said much the same in this thread Or the other half) in a slightly different way.

    Manufacturers tweak films & developers to match their products.

    Ian

  3. #32

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    The last B&W combo I used was Agfapan 25 and 100 in Rodinal 1:50 and toned in selenium. I LOVED the results. Now that I'm getting back into LF I must give the APX100/Rodinal combo a try.

  4. #33
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    My first combo wth Rodinal was AP100 & AP25. I had to print an old neg for an exhibition about 4 or 5 years ago and the AP25/Rodinal combination was just incredibly sharp and tonal, that was 129.

    With LF there's no APX100 until Fotoimpex begin to coat it again, under the Adox brand name, when stocks of 35mm run out. But Tmax 100 in Rodinal is equally as good, just use at 50 EI and the times for APX100 @ 100EI.

    I'd add also suggest you look at Sandy King's Pyrocat HD, it's a very versatile developer and gives excellent acutance and fine grain. It's a modern developer with an old twist - it's a staining developer.

    Ian
    Last edited by Ian Grant; 08-30-2009 at 02:17 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: add Pyrocat

  5. #34
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    I should remind you that you can only get 2 out of 3 properties at their peak from any film or developer combination. You have speed, sharpness and grain to consider. Pick two of the above and then pick your developer accordingly.

    Kodak has published a chart of this for their developers which has been referred to many times here on APUG. IDK if anyone else does.

    PE

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    Ian: I tried T-Max a l-o-n-g time ago and hated the results (muddy and blocked simultaneously) but I never really experimented with it because it was so bad. I'll try sanking's formula. That's with T-Max 100? I'll be shooting 4x10.

    Photo Engineer: I don't care about speed... only acutance and grain... in that order.

  7. #36
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Certain developers may get closer to the three

    Barry Thornton makes much of that triangle in the Edge of Darkness.

    I'm not a fan of Barry Thornton's writing but some is very sound, but as Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    Staining developers seem to be a modern key to achieving the optimal balance, in many ways it's a neglected area. Edwal was once pre-eminent in this field, Johnson's the oldest of all photo-chemical suppliers another and had one of the best with Meritol, the PPD/Pyrocatechin developing agents but our own Sandy King has (along with GH & PMK) revived the staining developer with Pyrocat HD which is like Rodinal on Steroid

    Some of the very best developers were made by smaller companies with some superb formulae. But even Agfa with Atomal, and M&B's Promicrol were nudging into the magig triangle.

    My own feelings are that at the moment Pyrocat in it's various forms is the best optimised developer for modern films

    Ian

  8. #37
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1234 View Post
    Ian: I tried T-Max a l-o-n-g time ago and hated the results (muddy and blocked simultaneously) but I never really experimented with it because it was so bad. I'll try sanking's formula. That's with T-Max 100? I'll be shooting 4x10.

    Photo Engineer: I don't care about speed... only acutance and grain... in that order.
    If you are serious about this, I suggest you use ISO 12 with an ISO 25 film and develop accordingly.

    PE

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    Ian: Rodinal on steroids? Ohhh... I LIKE that!!
    Last edited by Mike1234; 08-30-2009 at 02:52 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    If you are serious about this, I suggest you use ISO 12 with an ISO 25 film and develop accordingly.

    PE
    That was my norm many years ago. I overexposed Agfapan 25 and 100, underdeveloped in dilute Rodinal, then selenium toned to add contrast. Overexposure opened the shadows, underdevelopment precluded highlight blockage, and the selenium toner extended the straight line portion of the gamma curve. I toned via visual inspection aiming to print on Gallery grade 3. I underexposed the prints very slightly and toned them in selenium too. This had a similar effect on the prints... great tonal range, wide open shadows, wonderfully detailed highlights, and gorgeous print color to boot. Not speaking of my work... but tonality and acutance were spectacular, IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I should remind you that you can only get 2 out of 3 properties at their peak from any film or developer combination. You have speed, sharpness and grain to consider. Pick two of the above and then pick your developer accordingly.

    Kodak has published a chart of this for their developers which has been referred to many times here on APUG. IDK if anyone else does.

    PE
    OK, I will take the bait. I want good sharpness and definition of detail without emphasising graininess for my chosen film stock and I am happy to sacrifice some effective film speed if necessary to obtain that. Which developer(s) do you suggest? Xtol, D-76/ID-11, Ilfotec DD or others? This would be for Ilford`s Plus series films and Kodak`s T-Max films please, I am not bothered about the other B&W films available.

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