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  1. #81
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I find it refreshing that we do not need to be as concerned as we used to be, to specify quality as a blend of ideals of high resolution, maximum sharpness, minimum graininess. I had great fun experimenting with Dektol to achieve high graininess from Tri-X.

    When I rode up with the kids Monday on the bus taking them to their week away from home, all the kids were outfitted by their parents with disposable cameras. The whole way up I could hear click, bzzzz... click, bzzzz as several kids had stuck the cameras to the windows and took pictures of the ocean, cows, horses and trees that whizzed by. I know the shots are going to be terrible quality. But I could tell each shot - at the moment of taking - was something they saw that seemed quite interesting at the time.

    In a week or two when they get the pictures back, they probably will forget what the motivation was. They will likely throw out the blurry shots that they can't see anything in.

    But those are the interesting shots that really deserve to be seen.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    maybe whats up with the blur and the grain is
    that the photographer<s> in question are tired
    of making clinical looking photographs.
    tired of HCB, tired of atget, tired of weston and adams
    and he/<they> want to use other aspects of photography
    that the hcb, atget, weston, adams &al. group might have overlooked?

    at least whoever it might be who "you don't want to out" has you and others talking about aspects of photography that might not be in your comfort zone. and that is always a good thing ... i think it is laughable when people refer to people
    who do things they don't understand or like as "idiots"
    Yup I definitely think this is one of the keys, artists experimenting with less "normative" techniques as a reaction towards something, may it be classical photographers work, may it be the point and shoot culture with digital cameras, may it be the smartphone shooting culture, or all of the above and probably other things as well...

    It's not about me and my comfort zone, I'm just trying to understand, and the artist of the sample photography or other photographs I refer to is not of any importance, I deliberately chose to leave names and more samples out of the discussion as then it would all of a sudden be a discussion about "I Like, I don't like", and that's not creating an interesting and evolving discussion.

    Last edited by Felinik; 02-16-2013 at 04:48 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    http://street-photos.net/ | http://felinik.com/ | http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik

    "The one with the most stuff when he dies wins"

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoffy View Post
    Felinik, would you show us some examples of what type of photography you like and the type of photography (not yours) that you would buy?
    Read my reply above, it's not of interest for this discussions, it's not about me and what I like and not like.
    http://street-photos.net/ | http://felinik.com/ | http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik

    "The one with the most stuff when he dies wins"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felinik View Post
    Read my reply above, it's not of interest for this discussions, it's not about me and what I like and not like.
    Well actually you made a choice to start and define this discussion with an assumption, the assumption that using blur and large grain are a downgrade in quality. Trying to understand why your assumption exists seems to be reasonable and relevant.

    Personally I'd suggest that your assumption is flawed, to me those characteristics are not downgrades, just choices.

    Quality, from an artist's perspective, is defined by their intent for their work and what they want to express.

    In commercial portrait photography one of the big problems the industry has been grappling with for well over a hundred years is that most lenses and films are way too darn good at showing every bloody wrinkle and blemish. When photos are too honest about the sitter, the sitter won't buy them. Commercial portrait photography isn't about portraying what's normal, it's generally about showing an idealized version of the sitter(s)/buyer(s).

    That fact was a huge part of the motivation for the creation of soft focus lenses as was Pictorialist style photography in general. Using soft focus lenses or short DOF or lens tilts in a studio are just an artists choice in an effort to get a given result.

    The f64/West Coast style simply skews the meter the other way toward hyper reality where everything in the scene is sharp and contrasty. Think "Clearing Winter Storm" or "Moonrise" by Adams. I've lived in the mountains in California and Colorado long enough and been through Yosemite and Hernandez enough to know that Adams idealized these scenes at least a little . Again though, that's just a choice by the artist, it isn't intrinsically right or wrong, good or bad; it just "is".
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felinik View Post
    It's not about me and my comfort zone, I'm just trying to understand, and the artist of the sample photography or other photographs I refer to is not of any importance, I deliberately chose to leave names and more samples out of the discussion as then it would all of a sudden be a discussion about "I Like, I don't like", and that's not creating an interesting and evolving discussion.


    hi felinik ...


    strange ... you don't say it is about what you like, but you go on and on for 15 posts
    how you think it is just trick to get galleries to show work and publish a book,

    if you have questions about why someone does something, why bring it up to a room full of strangers?
    why not contact the person whose work is in question and ask them directly, or email their gallery and see
    what the galleryist-handler might have to say ....

    i do that kind of work all the time ... mostly because i am very bored ....

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    .... to me those characteristics are not downgrades, just choices.

    Quality, from an artist's perspective, is defined by their intent for their work and what they want to express.
    Indeed, and Jnanian states, based on personal experience, that bore is one motivation for these choices, and we have in this discussion reasoned around the idea that another motivation can have something to do with reactions on perfection, and based on how I interpret your thoughts around this you seem to be thinking in this direction too. Then you brought up another interesting point concerning portrait photography, which was then extracted to pictorialism and f64 which in a way confirms this reasoning, so all of the above sounds like a reasonable conclusion of the discussion so far.
    Last edited by Felinik; 02-16-2013 at 07:50 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    http://street-photos.net/ | http://felinik.com/ | http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik

    "The one with the most stuff when he dies wins"

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    hi felinik ...


    strange ... you don't say it is about what you like, but you go on and on for 15 posts
    how you think it is just trick to get galleries to show work and publish a book,

    if you have questions about why someone does something, why bring it up to a room full of strangers?
    why not contact the person whose work is in question and ask them directly, or email their gallery and see
    what the galleryist-handler might have to say ....

    i do that kind of work all the time ... mostly because i am very bored ....
    As I am not interested in a straight answer, I am here for the discussion, and to get the perspectives on the subject from a group of people with the same interest in debating it.
    http://street-photos.net/ | http://felinik.com/ | http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik

    "The one with the most stuff when he dies wins"

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felinik View Post
    Okay, with the risk of starting a flame war and make myself look like a complete bore.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felinik View Post
    Indeed, and Jnanian states, based on personal experience, that bore is one motivation for these choices, and we have in this discussion reasoned around the idea that another motivation can have something to do with reactions on perfection, and based on how I interpret your thoughts around this you seem to be thinking in this direction too. Then you brought up another interesting point concerning portrait photography, which was then extracted to pictorialism and f64 which in a way confirms this reasoning, so all of the above sounds like a reasonable conclusion of the discussion so far.
    its easy to generalize and say one size fits all.
    its obvious to me that everyone who picks up a camera has different reasons for doing it.
    in addition to boredom, i find images with blur and grainyness and distress to be more interesting
    more challenging to do than "straight" photography ..

    after viewing your work ( your signature ), why do you chose to shoot in such a rigid sort of way ?

  10. #90
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    its easy to generalize and say one size fits all.
    its obvious to me that everyone who picks up a camera has different reasons for doing it.
    in addition to boredom, i find images with blur and grainyness and distress to be more interesting
    more challenging to do than "straight" photography ..

    after viewing your work ( your signature ), why do you chose to shoot in such a rigid sort of way ?
    Felinik, I quite like your work... by rigid, jnanian must mean that every shot is "perfect", you show consistent high quality and strong compositions.

    So literally not an insult but asking why do you feel each image must be perfect? Consistent high quality is a good thing. In a high-stakes world, your reputation may depend on the fact that your work always represents the highest standards.

    jnanian has taught me that imperfection is a quality. Also that sometimes it is better to "relax" "let your hair down" "bare your soul" and "lay it on the line". Share what you've done, rather than show nothing because little failures don't live up to your expectations.

    An old friend once told me that the key to success is to never show anything that you aren't 100% happy with. I used to take that to mean each image had to be perfect. Now I am exploring photography in ways that would get my f/64 card revoked... I'm deciding that fine grain isn't the ultimate, sharpness isn't the ultimate. They remain my first loves, but sometimes the better picture isn't the sharpest one.

    My grayscale cat's an example. In my collection of photographs, I believe it is the ONLY image of a grayscale and a cat that I have. It's not that sharp. The next frame is a really cute, really sharp photograph of the same cat. But not nearly as interesting a picture.

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