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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_OB View Post
    Roger Hicks:
    We are all born artists.
    Roger, think twice.
    Dear Daniel,

    I didn't say we were born good artists...

    Cheers,

    R.

  2. #22
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jovo View Post
    Very little music lasts very long without being part of some lineage or another. Even the serialists maintained traditional instruments (for the most part) when they departed from tonality. And that entire era will most likely end up as a footnote a hundred years hence because it strayed too far from what the listener could agreeably appreciate or even comprehend.

    For the most part I agree, but I think, if 'art' is made at all, it becomes so because the photographer experiences an emotional resonance and connection with the subject whatever it is, and in whatever style it is photographed. It becomes something even more significant when the viewer senses that emotional energy. I am highly dubious about whether or not 'meaning' has much to do with it, hence the uniqueness of musical, or visual work on its own terms.
    I perhaps conflated "meaning" and "emotional response". I think the two concepts are inextricably connected as far as the creation of art is concerned - without an emotional response to a subject, it lacks sufficient meaning for me to want to capture that meaning on film, and if it means nothing to me, I don't respond emotionally, so I don't want to capture it on film. The overriding paradox here is the clash of rational and emotional responses that have to co-exist to create a work of art. The emotional tells us WHAT to photograph, and the rational tells us HOW to photograph it. Without the emotional, there is no subject, and without the rational, there is no depiction of the subject. But we must invoke the rational to create the representation of the emotional, so that we can communicate the emotional to others.

    ACK- another chicken-egg game!

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPablo View Post
    Irrespective of medium, representationality, or message, art to me is about an act of creation. And I don't mean this in a religious sense.

    Creation is about ownership. It's about bringing something into being that is yours. With pure art it's about bringing something into being that is non-functional, though a gray zone exists with architecture, furniture-making, and even disciplines of entertainment.

    When at least an element of your creation is non-functional, you have made that creative choice for aesthetic (or perhaps philosophical or narrative) reasons that don't require function, or efficiency, or economy.

    To me there is an impulse in many of us to be creative. And whether the fruits of our creativity are representational or not doesn't matter so much -- they all stem from the same drive.


    Incidentally, I've done some reading about musical aesthetics, and as I understand it most music really does not have much resemblance to naturally occurring sounds. Bird songs are atonal, for instance. Pieces of classical music that evoke nature (Beethoven's Pastorale, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, etc) don't really sound much like actual nature. I suppose the second movement of Mahler's 7th Symphony sounds a bit like bird songs, but in a very stylized way.

    One exception to this is the African tama (the talking drum), which to an amazing degree mimics the inflections of the tonal languages (esp. in Nigeria).
    Paul, I want to thank you for a very nice comment on one of the aspects of creation and it's application to art. Very helpful.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  4. #24

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    I want to take this opportunity to thank each of you for your participation in what, for me, was a very enlightening and helpful discussion. A big help...thanks.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  5. #25
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    Taken those conditions into consideration, what then is artistic about that which we (you and I) produce? Since most of us are human beings at the very core of our condition...that furthermore our work is not singular in point of address, what conditions of human experience are we addressing in the production of our photographs? Does the record of the existence of a tree, a stream, clouds in a sky, the interior of a temple, address anything about the conditions that human beings experience? How does illustration of these "known objects" lead to any universal acceptance by others and how does the illustration of these "known objects" speak to the matters of hope, fear, despair, lonliness, joy, sorrow, hunger, plenty, peace, or unrest within the soul of man?
    You seriously need to read the Walker Evans book "The Hungry Eye". From start to finish. I just finished going through it and I think I have advanced some in my own thinking.

    It's a lot like pain, I am in my 7th year of physical pain from an accident. It fluxuates from mild to severe. I had very hard time trying to explain it because it can't be taken out and put on a counter, looked at, qualified, quantified or measured against any other except the crude "on a scale of 1 to 10" gauge.

    My wife, who is a nurse, said to me "Pain is what you say it is". So when someone tells me what my pain is, how do they know? It's what I say it is.

    Way back when we were children and got our hands on some materials, any kind of materials, and started to make "things" we called it Art. Have you ever asked a child what they are making and they said "Art"? Art is what they say it is. We may think it is poor art, we may think it is brilliant art, or we may think that it is not art at all. It doesnt' matter, it's what the child says it is.

    Regards,
    Curt
    Everytime I find a film or paper that I like, they discontinue it. - Paul Strand - Aperture monograph on Strand

  6. #26

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    "Art is not what you see, but what you make others see." ~Degas

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller View Post
    Taken those conditions into consideration, what then is artistic about that which we (you and I) produce? Since most of us are human beings at the very core of our condition...that furthermore our work is not singular in point of address, what conditions of human experience are we addressing in the production of our photographs? Does the record of the existence of a tree, a stream, clouds in a sky, the interior of a temple, address anything about the conditions that human beings experience? How does illustration of these "known objects" lead to any universal acceptance by others and how does the illustration of these "known objects" speak to the matters of hope, fear, despair, lonliness, joy, sorrow, hunger, plenty, peace, or unrest within the soul of man?

    donald

    people react to things differently depending on their life-experience.
    while a camera is able to record things on film ( or paper ) and while
    the image recorded may resonate with some, it will never resonate with everyone.
    a lot of "art" i see every day in books magazines, galleries &C
    means something to someone, but because i haven't had some sort of similar
    experience that links me, i can't relate and it is lost on me.
    sometimes landscape photography is like that (to me) i can not see beyond
    the illustration part, because i have no life expereince that connects me to
    the landscapes shown ... other than --- that place looks - calm, nice, hellish, ...

    i am not sure if what i said makes any sense at all ...

    interesting discussion,
    thanks!

    john
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
    artwork often times sold for charity
    PM me for details

  8. #28
    Curt's Avatar
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    people react to things differently depending on their life-experience.
    while a camera is able to record things on film ( or paper ) and while
    the image recorded may resonate with some, it will never resonate with everyone.
    a lot of "art" i see every day in books magazines, galleries &C
    means something to someone, but because i haven't had some sort of similar
    experience that links me, i can't relate and it is lost on me.
    sometimes landscape photography is like that (to me) i can not see beyond
    the illustration part, because i have no life expereince that connects me to
    the landscapes shown ... other than --- that place looks - calm, nice, hellish, ...

    i am not sure if what i said makes any sense at all
    ...


    It's not Art because you can't step up to it with the knowledge or experiences to make it so or is it the fault of the person who made the Art? Maybe it's not Art. Brett Weston was aware that laymen and workers "got" it and were thrilled about his photographs and that was more important to him than some so called art expert.

    Maybe it's not "High Art" then. It's what Ansel Adams called "scenery". It's just "scenery" because it fails and does not become ......... And that is the something that is hard to pin down. Even Adams squirmed all over about it and didn't or couldn't make the defining statement.
    Everytime I find a film or paper that I like, they discontinue it. - Paul Strand - Aperture monograph on Strand

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    ...


    It's not Art because you can't step up to it with the knowledge or experiences to make it so or is it the fault of the person who made the Art? Maybe it's not Art. Brett Weston was aware that laymen and workers "got" it and were thrilled about his photographs and that was more important to him than some so called art expert.

    Maybe it's not "High Art" then. It's what Ansel Adams called "scenery". It's just "scenery" because it fails and does not become ......... And that is the something that is hard to pin down. Even Adams squirmed all over about it and didn't or couldn't make the defining statement.
    i am not suggesting you need to be a so-called expert to "get it"
    i am just suggesting that the "getting it" sometimes has to do with personal experience ...
    silver magnets, trickle tanks sold
    artwork often times sold for charity
    PM me for details

  10. #30
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    Oh Donald...

    I found this nugget that you wrote back in 2005 when I was gazing at my own navel;

    Murray, I am sorry if I offended your or anyone else's sensiblilities. I still feel quite strongly about all of the heavy, thoughtful, intellectually engrossing philosophical questions ongoingly posted here that obviously don't have any heavy, thoughtful, intellectually engrossing valid answers.

    Speaking from my personal experience, gathered over the past twenty five years, and the experiences of others, it seems that these "heady and deeply philosophical questions" all come down to still further self absorbtion and self aggrandizement at monumental scale.

    In retrospect, I think that I would have been better served to let you and all who want to engage their minds in these pursuits do so...hell I may be surprised and find that you may come up with the "meaning of life" in your ruminations.

    Heck if you or I don't feel like taking photos...then simply don't do it...if you want to do it later...do it...if you or I never want to do it again...we should do that too...the answers for why this happens are largely illusory...they are personal. I would hope that you would have the intelligence to not pretend that you have answers for me...or I for you. Until then I will leave the philosophical questions to those who want to spend their time so engaged. I will go and make photographs...or not.


    How the passage of time changes things

    Murray
    Last edited by MurrayMinchin; 06-07-2007 at 11:53 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Because I must...
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

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