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  1. #181
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gim View Post
    Does artistic (?) porn cause more damage to children than war, poverty, hunger, hate, politics or religion. Statistics anyone??
    Jim
    According to UNICEF:

    An estimated 20 million children have been forced to flee their homes because of conflict and human rights violations and are living as refugees in neighbouring countries or are internally displaced within their own national borders.
    More than 2 million children have died as a direct result of armed conflict over the last decade.
    More than three times that number, at least 6 million children, have been permanently disabled or seriously injured.
    More than 1 million have been orphaned or separated from their families.
    Between 8,000 and 10,000 children are killed or maimed by landmines every year.
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  2. #182
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Nisperos View Post
    Hey, JB, nice pic. Where you born in December, by chance? In a barn?
    and you know that the December 25 thing was really not his actual birth day, but just a way to usurp a Roman holiday to make the new religion more palatable to the locals?

  3. #183

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    Well, the idea of artistic porn was not offensive but the direction this thread has turned surely is. Maybe this should disappear to the soapbox where other hate mongering threads are banished too.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  4. #184
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    MHV,

    I think you are not communicating with me, but jumping into your own conclusions without reading what I said.
    Let's see...

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    I did not denigrate homosexual couples or their adopted children's rearing. You jumped to this conclusion yourself. See my reply concerning what I think about homosexual vs. heterosexual couples with children.
    Yes, I recall it, it said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    Healthy and lifelong heterosexual relationships are the most complete and healthy relationship for raising children who become healthy adults. Our society wishes to deny this so that we can excuse our adidiction to sexual pleasure at the expense of the healthy reproduction of our species.
    I think I made a fair interpretation of your words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    I did not say that women are not arroused by pornographic material, only that men are to a greater proportion. Just check out the local magazine rack for this one.
    Nope, you're mistaking market for facts. Women are less likely to consume pornography the way it exists now, but they are not less potentially aroused by the visual display of sexually explicit acts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    I said that sexual arousal brings on sexual acts. Read it again.
    Why don't you read again my answer: "That sexual predators watch pornography, and that it has a deletrious effect on their condition is a fact. That pornography causes their condition is at best a hypothesis, not a logically following conclusion."

    You say sex entails violence because violent people like sex. I say that by this evidence you cannot conclude that violent people like sex, because there are many, many people you consume pornography and who do not perform sexual aggressions. Have you also noticed that of all the sexual aggressors caught recently, all of them drank pepsi or coke regularly? My, then, soft drinks surely must cause rape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    Thanks for responding, you don't seem to agree with what I am saying. Why is it so necessary to prove my points wrong if they are so unreasonable? By the way, what exactly are you trying to say that is contrary to my points?
    a) Because there is no point in not responding to what I disagree with, especially when it is presented in such a dishonest manner.
    b) Because it is fradulent logic like yours, laced with the emotionally manipulative potential of a child abuse story that is so detrimental to the societal support for things like gay rights, women's free choice concerning abortion, or contraception.
    c) Despite what you claim, I do not agree with you. Don't play stupid.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  5. #185
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    And now for more on-topic talk:

    YAY FOR ARTISTIC PORN!!! Love and picture, screw and photograph! Long live Roy Stuart, long live all the BSDM scene, long live all the exotic things we could see in the links posted by previous posters, long live John Cameron Mitchell, long live every bloody celebration of the act of fornicating!
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  6. #186
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    Would we all basically agree that the definition of porn is subjective? Ask ten persons, and get ten different answers. Ask ten people what is art, same thing, ten different answers. So the big question we have been facing, before the little detour through morality 101 was "what are we talking about?"

    I think we will have a difficult time defining the terms separately, let alone together. Who sets the definition? What of my art and craft? I wouldn't create something I considered porn. So who decides if it is or not? Me? The reverend? Larry Flynnt? Is it art? Who says so? Me? The reverend? John Szarkowski?

    It's a stimulating conversation, but artistic porn is perhaps unattainable, except by individual perception, because the definition is unattainable.
    Last edited by JBrunner; 11-05-2006 at 11:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #187
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    The fact that armed conflict harms more children than pornography is a canard, guys. More people are killed by cigarettes than machineguns in the US, but that doesn't mean that one should encourage machinegun ownership because of that.

    So let's set aside the tangents like Rome's unfortunate opposition to safe African sex or the tragedy of large-scale harm to children and many others by wars or forced starvation -- these crimes have little if anything to do with the assertions made about pornography's broadly alleged harm to children. Which has so far not been supported by any sort of evidence. Indeed, less-tolerant cultures have been shown, statistically, to be less positive environments for children, with higher murder rates and rates of teen pregnancy (to cite two examples) than more-tolerant ones.

    I don't think that statistics are the only way to answer questions about 'evidence' but they are usually a solid method. What's not been heard among these posts so far is any sort of objective citatation for such assertions at all.

    Similarly, the idea of heterosexual coupling as being superior to heterosexual coupling due to its connection to 'life' -- one could easily make a contrarian argument based on overpopulation leading to death etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    ...who said you were a flawed copy of a 'more perfect' boogieman? Is this a jab at Jesus Christ?
    The fallen or failed-copy view of humanity is a common one that spans many religious myths and is hardly unique to Christianity, so... no, not specifically. Rather, I contend that 'nobility,' either used to describe people or actions, is a questionable notion because it implies a teleological purpose to our existience and actions, and that such teleology can be used to rate those actions as greater or lesser -- rather than simply a functional method that bases its ethical choices upon the best-available objective evidence about the possible benefits or harmful effects of those actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    Nobody was talking religion here...
    Actually, you did, and directly asserted religious authority by attempting to validate your statements by using your 'rev' title -- there's no such thing as 'just' a title, which I why I don't bother signing my posts with 'Doctor' or 'Mister' etc unless there were some specific agenda to be served by such a citation.

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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post

    Similarly, the idea of heterosexual coupling as being superior to heterosexual coupling due to its connection to 'life' -- one could easily make a contrarian argument based on overpopulation leading to death etc.The fallen or failed-copy view of humanity is a common one that spans many religious myths and is hardly unique to Christianity, so... no, not specifically. Rather, I contend that 'nobility,' either used to describe people or actions, is a questionable notion because it implies a teleological purpose to our existience and actions, and that such teleology can be used to rate those actions as greater or lesser -- rather than simply a functional method that bases its ethical choices upon the best-available objective evidence about the possible benefits or harmful effects of those actions.
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  9. #189

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    I suppose this subject was bound to open a can of worms (no pun intended- oh well, all right it is intended).

    "What is 'porn'?" and

    "What is 'art' ?

    As various people have said, unanswerable, indefinable, except to answer the first post, yes, surely there is such a thing as 'artistic porn' which is not to define it or put any value-judgement on it (i.e. that it is, because of this, automatically and necessarily taken to some sort of 'higher place', although it may be).

    Surely this forum is not the place for conversion, to any particular moral belief system. Some arguments (either way) are just not worth starting here, let alone pursuing.

    So where does that lead us? Can we get back to the purpose of the thread apart from the worms? (I'm genuinely interested in what the purpose is/was, but for now I've lost it completely).

    Maybe the only conclusion is Aggie's - we have to learn, as people sure, but here as photographers, to respect other peoples' moral systems, and find a way of being able to pursue our own, as freely as possible, without causing offence to others. That's the conondrum, I feel.

    Cate

  10. #190
    Christopher Nisperos's Avatar
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    JOCK STURGES

    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post
    The fact that armed conflict harms more children than pornography is a canard, guys. . . let's set aside the tangents like Rome's unfortunate opposition to safe African sex . . .
    Hello Bjoke. A "canard"—unless I'm mistaken— is a false story, so I'm going to assume you mean a given. One reason I brought up the Vatican's opposition to safe-sex in Africa in my response to Rev, was not only to expose the hypocrisy of his position, but also because I honestly think he wasn't aware it. Or, to use his favorite word, I was just trying to edify him. Otherwise, I agree with your point.

    By the way, I see that you're in Northern California, my old stomping grounds. I used to work at Newell Color Lab (way before the Jock Sturges polemic). . .speaking of which...

    To be clear, I'm quite admirative of the work of Jock Sturges and I do not consider it to be pornographic (the U.S. courts agree with me). However, being that many people still see "pornography" in his images —and being as we're on the sub-topic of children— perhaps he belongs in this discussion.

    Any opinions?

    .



 

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