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  1. #191
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargazer View Post
    I
    Maybe the only conclusion is Aggie's - we have to learn, as people sure, but here as photographers, to respect other peoples' moral systems, and find a way of being able to pursue our own, as freely as possible, without causing offence to others. That's the conondrum, I feel.

    Cate
    That's all I have ever meant. Is to respect others who do not believe as we do. It's not just one religion, or one culture. each culture and religion will have differeing ideas. In a forum like this, there are many more reading who do not post that have ideas about it on both sides of the question. It's subjective depending on what you like. Is it so hard to respect others? Then again there is pushing the envelop in art. Can we respectfully push that envelop? Would not art be in doing the pushing while respecting others? Yeah I know puns intended too!
    Non Digital Diva

  2. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Nisperos View Post
    Hello Bjoke. A "canard"—unless I'm mistaken— is a false story, so I'm going to assume you mean a given.
    .
    No, he clearly meant that the argument that pornography is ok because more kids are harmed by other things is fallacious. He's absolutely right. Btw., that conclusion doesn't imply that pornography, whatever it is, is either good or bad.

  3. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie View Post
    That's all I have ever meant. Is to respect others who do not believe as we do. It's not just one religion, or one culture. each culture and religion will have differeing ideas. In a forum like this, there are many more reading who do not post that have ideas about it on both sides of the question. It's subjective depending on what you like. Is it so hard to respect others? Then again there is pushing the envelop in art. Can we respectfully push that envelop? Would not art be in doing the pushing while respecting others? Yeah I know puns intended too!
    It's true that we should treat others with compassion and forbearance, and we shouldn't assume that our own culture and beliefs are inherently any better than any other group. Nonetheless, there's nothing inherently wrong about making moral judgments about different cultural practices. If you don't think so, you can't say the Nazis were morally wrong. That itself would be a moral mistake. Furthermore, it's not wrong to say things that someone might find offensive. Slavery was despicable, and it doesn't matter if some slave owners are offended by my saying that. That said, when talking about about sensitive issues, it's only proper to speak carefully and politely. Always be charitable when interpreting others, and if what they say isn't clear, don't jump to the most outrageous interpretation. Instead, ask them to clarify. And so on.

  4. #194
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    In a forum on ethics, the title Rev. should lend credence to my opinions seeing as I have actually been formally trained in the subject of ethics. The fact that I am raising a child who is suffering from the effects of sexual abuse should lend credence that I am not a hypocrite. I care, and that care leads to real action not just sactimonious preaching. My opponents seem pretty sanctimonious to me, but I assume they likewise practice what they preach.

    The fact that there is a direct link between pornography and sexual assault in children and adults is well documented. Please go to this web site for a listing of studies concerning this topic. www.ktk.ru/~cm/stat2.htm

  5. #195
    Aggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    It's true that we should treat others with compassion and forbearance, and we shouldn't assume that our own culture and beliefs are inherently any better than any other group. Nonetheless, there's nothing inherently wrong about making moral judgments about different cultural practices. If you don't think so, you can't say the Nazis were morally wrong. That itself would be a moral mistake. Furthermore, it's not wrong to say things that someone might find offensive. Slavery was despicable, and it doesn't matter if some slave owners are offended by my saying that. That said, when talking about about sensitive issues, it's only proper to speak carefully and politely. Always be charitable when interpreting others, and if what they say isn't clear, don't jump to the most outrageous interpretation. Instead, ask them to clarify. And so on.
    Yes you can throw politics into this debate, but the question of this thread was Pornography art. To that end I am narrowing my view down to that concept only. almost a year ago there was a big bru ha ha here on apug about a young woman who took and also posted nudes of herself. Nothing wrong with the nudes, she did some interesting things with them. The problem came to light when it was noted where she had taken the pictures. She had done so on the Navajo Reservation. Now that is where the problem really came from. It is illegal and I must emphasize that, ILLEGAL! on the Navajo reservation to take nude photography. It is part of their culture to not do such things. It is their religious beliefs. It is also a written law. She also did not get permission from the Navajo tribe to take those pictures, which she was supposed to do. She claimed some shaman had allwoed her to do it, and had done a prayer ceremony about it. It came to light that that was all bogus as well. She got mad, and yeah I was a bull dog about it when the lies started and I made the phone calls to confirm what she had done. Point is, it is a stated taboo also written into law. No matter how artistic it was, it was disrespectful of the peoples who lived there. Do we in our art or search for art disrespect the culture, and religious beliefs of others just to take a picture? On the other hand yes there are many horrible things happening in the world. Things you cited are not of a pornagraphic nature in the sense of what this thread is about. You are siting political incidents. That is fodder for a different thread. If not this thread should then get dumped into the soapbox on its political merits.

    That is not me saying it should be locked or deleted. I have had too many people on apug think because I said soapbox that somehow that morphed into me demanding and having the power to delete the thread.
    Non Digital Diva

  6. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    In a forum on ethics, the title Rev. should lend credence to my opinions seeing as I have actually been formally trained in the subject of ethics.

    That's just wrong. Others here have formal training in Ethics. But when talking about right or wrong, how much training one has is irrelevant. All that matters is the reasons one gives for one's position.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    In a forum on ethics, the title Rev. should lend credence to my opinions seeing as I have actually been formally trained in the subject of ethics. The fact that I am raising a child who is suffering from the effects of sexual abuse should lend credence that I am not a hypocrite. I care, and that care leads to real action not just sactimonious preaching. My opponents seem pretty sanctimonious to me, but I assume they likewise practice what they preach.

    The fact that there is a direct link between pornography and sexual assault in children and adults is well documented. Please go to this web site for a listing of studies concerning this topic. www.ktk.ru/~cm/stat2.htm
    have you actually read what those studies say? They're not talking about casual pornography consumption - they're talking about people who are addicted. Also, look WHERE you're getting your statistics from. a RUSSIAN website- perhaps this individual has an axe to grind with their perception of life in America, which they want to portray as a decadent and debauched nation?

    I do find it rather bothersome that you are repeatedly trumpeting your adoption of this girl who has been so traumatized as some kind of credential. If you must keep telling total strangers about how she is the "product" of "fornication", I wonder what kind of message you send to her, for you must talk about it with her more than you do with us! Poor child is being traumatized all over again for something that was completely beyond her control.

    I too am an adopted child, and I don't know why my birth parents gave me up for adoption. Frankly, I think I'm better off for it. Could be that my birth mom was too young; could be that she was raped; could be that dad ran off with the cocktail waitress when she was seven months along and she didn't want a constant reminder of the selfish bastard; could be any number of things. I really don't care why- I'm just glad I ended up in a loving home with two devoted parents. If my parents know, they're not saying; and they certainly never rubbed it in my face that they "saved" me from some other horrible life.

    If you really care, your actions should speak for themselves, and not need promotion to fulfill your need for external recognition. No saint was ever self-anointed or self-nominated to the sainthood.

  8. #198
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    In a forum on ethics, the title Rev. should lend credence to my opinions seeing as I have actually been formally trained in the subject of ethics. The fact that I am raising a child who is suffering from the effects of sexual abuse should lend credence that I am not a hypocrite. I care, and that care leads to real action not just sactimonious preaching. My opponents seem pretty sanctimonious to me, but I assume they likewise practice what they preach.

    The fact that there is a direct link between pornography and sexual assault in children and adults is well documented. Please go to this web site for a listing of studies concerning this topic. www.ktk.ru/~cm/stat2.htm

    Well I will put on my academic hat (which should lend credence to my opinions, I suppose) and point to you that of all the sources your site list, none argue to the effect that pornography has a deletrious effect on normal people except Zillmann, Dolf (1982), and that study has had its fair share of criticism over the last 24 years (yes I can furnish references).

    24 years is damn long in academia, and nobody respectable can ignore the large followup of an article in its assessment. All the other studies argue for the cumulative effect of it on people who commit sex crimes. Which is a whole different argument. So the "direct link" you are positing must be qualified.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  9. #199
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    ... Pornography hurts children, I prefer to help them. We need to consider the consequences of our freedom.
    I have been searching for credible evidence that pornography hurts ANYONE - including children. If you know of any (please, no "everybody knows", or thunderous pronouncements from various pulpits) - I'd really like to know about it.

    The best information I've seen so far comes from the United Nation's World Health Organization, where they reported on the consequences of removing criminal penalties - "legalization"? - of so-called pornography in the Scandinavian Countries in the - when was it? - '60's or '70's. Surprisingly, to some, every effect was positive - sex crimes of every sort - and violent crime in general, decreased significantly in frequency.

    Be that as it may, I'll propose another question: "Which cause more harm, sexual freedom or sexual repression and denial?"

    BTW... It has been proven, conclusively, that 99% of ALL serial killers, rapists, sexual predators, child molesters ... ate MASHED POTATOES at one time or another in their lives. Do you think that banning mashed potatoes would be a "good thing"?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  10. #200
    Salmonoid's Avatar
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    "BTW... It has been proven, conclusively, that 99% of ALL serial killers, rapists, sexual predators, child molesters ... ate MASHED POTATOES at one time or another in their lives. Do you think that banning mashed potatoes would be a "good thing"?"

    I have argued no where for banning anything in any of my points. You are making this assumtion yourself. I would rather the artists understand that there actions have real consequences. In other words, art matters. An ethical artist takes this into consideration.



 

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