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  1. #211
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    "All the other studies argue for the cumulative effect of it on people who commit sex crimes. Which is a whole different argument."

    No this is exactly my point. A direct quote from my original post. "It is a well established fact that all sexaul preditors are users of pornography first." There is a link between sexual preditors and pornography use. There is a link between pornography production and pornography use/addiction. (I am sure you will argue this point as well, but why?) From these studies it would also logical to deduce that there are responders on topic who are also sexual preditors. Statistically this is very probable. I think many of you doth protest too much.
    You're making a chicken/egg argument here. You assume that pornography by itself has the power to corrupt and seduce someone who otherwise would never be a sexual predator into being a sexual predator. You're also assuming that use alwas leads to addiction.

    There are certain personality types who are prone to addiction, and who are prone to other pathological behaviors. If you'd like to take an example of someone who would NOT have had access to what we today would describe as commercial pornography, how about Jack the Ripper? One of the most notorious violent sexual predators of all time, yet unless he truly was Crown Prince Albert, or the Queen's Physician, it is highly unlikely that he consumed pornography to any specific degree. We of course cannot know for certain, since even his actual identity is indeterminate, and criminology in Victorian England was rather different than it is now.

    While you may be accurate in your statistical assumption that of the 17,000 people who post on APUG, there are some sexual predators, it takes a set and a half of elephant testicles to level an accusation at anyone here who is engaging you in debate on this topic of being a sexual predator. The people least likely to be perpetrators are the ones most willing to discuss this issue with you; most sexual predators do NOT seek attention for their viewpoints as they know that society would at best ostracize them for it, and prosecute them at worst.

    Oh, and by the way, you're using the Hitlerian oratorical method too- repeat an unsubstantiated fact (or blatant falsehood) enough, with enough vigor, and eventually people will believe it is the truth.
    Last edited by TheFlyingCamera; 11-06-2006 at 11:35 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: just had to put in 10 more cents worth.

  2. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markok765 View Post
    Nude women are only art if there's an urn in it... or a plinth. Both is best o'course. It's a secret sign, see, that they put in to say that it's Art and okay to look at.'
    Terry Pratchett strikes again.

  3. #213
    bjorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    ...it would also logical to deduce that there are responders on topic who are also sexual preditors. Statistically this is very probable.
    Wow.

    I mean: wow.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
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  4. #214
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    "All the other studies argue for the cumulative effect of it on people who commit sex crimes. Which is a whole different argument."

    No this is exactly my point. A direct quote from my original post. "It is a well established fact that all sexaul preditors are users of pornography first." There is a link between sexual preditors and pornography use. There is a link between pornography production and pornography use/addiction. (I am sure you will argue this point as well, but why?) From these studies it would also logical to deduce that there are responders on topic who are also sexual preditors. Statistically this is very probable. I think many of you doth protest too much.
    You characterized the relationship between porn and sexual violence as such:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    6. Pornography is addictive to many males, and will lead to the foresaking of spouse and family for self gratification. It is a well established fact that all sexaul preditors are users of pornography first. Sexual arousal leads to sexual acts, most of which are destructive of healthy marriage, and nurturing of children.
    Here is the logical structure of your argument:

    P1 Pornography creates arousal (assumption)
    P2 Sexual arousal is addictive (assumption)
    P3 Addiction leads to the foresaking of spouse and family for self gratification (assumption)
    P4 Pornography leads to the destruction of family life (by P1, P2 and P3, transitively)
    P5 Sexual predators consume pornography which feeds in their acts (assumption)
    C By P4 and P5, pornography was responsible for turning "normal" people into sexual predators.

    The problem is first that P2 needs a particular quantifier, and you set it up with a universal quantifier. In other words, not everybody will be addicted to pornography. Second, the conclusion C does not follow, because the burden of evidence is upon the causes for sexual deviancy. Your evidence has not shown any significant proof that the cause of sexual deviancy is pornography as your claims propose. It has only shown that where there already is evidence of sexual deviancy, that pornography is detrimental to this condition.

    When you say "There is a link between sexual preditors and pornography use. " I agree with you, but not in an unqualified way. The nature of this link is not one of causation of deviancy, and that is the only thing that I'm arguing over and over. If you agree with me that pornography is an adjuvant to, but not a cause of, sexual deviancy, then I have nothing else to bicker about, and we can shake hands in understanding.
    Using film since before it was hip.


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  5. #215
    blansky's Avatar
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    I think the good reverend has pretty much shown his colors.


    I thank God every day I was adopted into a family of loving sane people.

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    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  6. #216
    Bromo33333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmonoid View Post
    "So then are you saying that artists who photograph or paint sexual imagery are unethical?"

    No. But those who knowing produce images that lead to the harming of others are.
    The way I see it, there are 2 main arguments here:

    1. The Libertarian Argument: The participants are not harmed in any way - and consent to being participants - not coerced in anyway. Viewing of the result is optional and avoidable. Since no direct harm is done in the production of this, and the results are not required viewing, there is nothing at all wrong.

    2. The Paternalistic Argument: The results, even with full consent of participants, and with viewing being optional and avoidable, still will harm. Either by cheapening sexuality (exploitation of women, men, etc.), causing people to behave dangerously or badly (the porn causes sex crimes argument), or warp those that view it sometimes, excessively or at all. The result is both the fault of the producer, those that patronize, and those the commit crimes. Therefore is should be banned, restricted or regulated in some manner to protect society, and people from themselves.

    I see these 2 groups going back and forth here. I do not think the bridge will be crossed here in APUG, but there is some sort of compromise reached in most countries. Some are more permissive (Amsterdam), some more restrictive (China, Saudi Arabia), some in the middle.
    Last edited by Bromo33333; 11-06-2006 at 11:42 AM. Click to view previous post history.
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  7. #217
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    Oh, and by the way, you're using the Hitlerian oratorical method too- repeat an unsubstantiated fact (or blatant falsehood) enough, with enough vigor, and eventually people will believe it is the truth.
    I think it's also called the Chewbacca Defense...
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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  8. #218

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    Even if sexual imagery, or anything else for that matter, contributes to the harming of someone, it doesn't follow that it is immoral, or that it shouldn't be done. Driving cars leads to thousands of deaths each year, but driving one isn't therefore immoral. Here's another example, having children is an enabling cause of child abuse, since if we didn't have children, there wouldn't be any such abuse... Instead of condemning a practice by pointing out that it is an enabling cause for harmful behviour, what should be looked at is the totality of benefits and harm, which isn't a simple thing to do.

    To sum things up: Some people think that pornography is inherently bad. Others don't. Some people think that it can be Art. Others disagree.

  9. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhv View Post
    I think it's also called the Chewbacca Defense...
    Nice one! "Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury..."

  10. #220

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    Let me see if I got this right, Salmanoid voiced his opinions, like everyone else here, and was flamed for it. He was apparently flamed because he based his views on his religious beliefs. He was flamed because many of you seem to have an issue with his religious beliefs.

    Now, I know it is Monday, and the baby was up late last night, and I am tired so I may have missed something here. Since porn is a subjective area anyway, aren't there going to be several definitions of what it is, and basically no one is right (thus making no one wrong). or are we saying, that someone with religious convictions cannot be allowed to voice their opinions and say why they feel that way?

    Seriously I am confused, as to why you jumped the poor guy's post and treated him is such a rude manner.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004



 

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