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  1. #231
    blansky's Avatar
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    Jock Sturges. I'm kinda torn.

    It seems kind of like voyeurism to me. I certainly haven't been moved (now stop that) by anything I've seen of his.

    It sort of seems like a guy pushing the envelope and engaging our irrational fear of nudity and shame, that we in this country have about pictures of naked people including children. This of course brings us back to the influence that religion namely christianity, has had on our feelings about nudity in this country.

    Nudity has for me always been about dropping barriers and "uniforms" and an attempt to reveal the real person, or at least the real persons body. To see a sort of bland who cares kind of nudity which I think is his context, in my opinion, doesn't really do too much for me, pro or con.

    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  2. #232
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
    Great photographer of pubescent girls -- but his best pictures are often the ones where they have their clothes on, rather than off. If we're going to have a 'porn divide' I'd put Hamilton fractionally on the porn side and Sturges fractionally on the not-porn side.

    Cheers,

    R.
    I find Hamilton is beautiful coming of age, in color, in a French cottage kind of thing and Sturges, coming of age in black and white, at the beach.

    Neither porn.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  3. #233
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    I'm more partial to Sally Mann than Jock Sturges. If we're talking about budding youth in general, how about some of Bruce Weber's work he did for the Abercrombie & Fitch campaigns? it may not be technically pornographic, but to me it is more suggestive and intended to titillate than Jock's work. Or for yet another take, Reuven Afanador's Torero series, where he photographed some young toreadors in various countries in Latin America where the bullfighting tradition is still strong, in some homoerotic poses. I think some of the boys he photographed were in their late teens (16+), but from the scars some of them had, they were more "men" than most of us couch potatoes participating in this chat. How do you draw the dividing line between maturity and immaturity? Can someone who has faced down a 1000 lb bull with 18" horns be too young to decide to pose nude at 16?

  4. #234
    Christopher Nisperos's Avatar
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    Porn Art Museum

    . . . and as remarkable as it seems, a whole museum on the subject:

    http://www.porninart.ch/museum/index.html

  5. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    I find Hamilton is beautiful coming of age, in color, in a French cottage kind of thing and Sturges, coming of age in black and white, at the beach.

    Neither porn.


    Michael

    Dear Michael,

    Once, I'd have agreed with you. But consider this comment from the younger sister of a girl I once fancied. She (the sister, not the girl) was maybe 14. When she heard I has a Hamilton book, she asked to borrow it.

    "You see one, and you think, wow. And you see another, and you think, he's good. And by the tenth you say, what else can he do?"

    That's why I've not bought another Hamilton book in 25-30 years.

    Porn? Possibly; possibly not. I don't really care in either case. The main purpose was to draw a parallel with Sturges, where there is far less overt eroticism.

    Cheers,

    R.

  6. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky View Post
    Jock Sturges. I'm kinda torn.

    It seems kind of like voyeurism to me....It sort of seems like a guy pushing the envelope and engaging our irrational fear of nudity and shame, that we in this country have about pictures of naked people including children....

    Michael
    I'll go along with that. Some of those girls don't look comfortable. Others do. And a lot depends on your definition of 'child'.

    Cheers,

    R.

  7. #237
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
    "You see one, and you think, wow. And you see another, and you think, he's good. And by the tenth you say, what else can he do?"

    That's why I've not bought another Hamilton book in 25-30 years.
    You nailed it there. His work is kind of like the antithesis of a tattoo, " I bet you can't get just one".

    One Hamilton and you're good for life. I settled for his greatest hits....the best of David Hamilton.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  8. #238
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    What about Roy Stuart? Given that he uses precisely the visual conventions of pornography in his work, wherein would lie that fine line he wants us to make between porn and his work?
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

    My APUG Portfolio

  9. #239
    Christopher Nisperos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    I'm more partial to Sally Mann than Jock Sturges. If we're talking about budding youth in general, how about some of Bruce Weber's work he did for the Abercrombie & Fitch campaigns? it may not be technically pornographic, but to me it is more suggestive and intended to titillate than Jock's work. Or for yet another take, Reuven Afanador's Torero series, where he photographed some young toreadors in various countries in Latin America where the bullfighting tradition is still strong, in some homoerotic poses. I think some of the boys he photographed were in their late teens (16+), but from the scars some of them had, they were more "men" than most of us couch potatoes participating in this chat. How do you draw the dividing line between maturity and immaturity? Can someone who has faced down a 1000 lb bull with 18" horns be too young to decide to pose nude at 16?
    .. and speaking of male nudes and the question of porn as art (plus, considering my interest in Hollywood lighting), what about the work of Jim French? Here you have males, sometimes in full erection, but with some of the best damned 'Hollywood' lighting you can find anywhere.

    When people contact me and ask me where there can see modern-day examples of Hollywood lighting, I've frequently refered them to the Jim French/Colt website. The posing can be a little "kitschy", but I suppose that's part of the Hollywood look too. When I tell people about the site, I don't ask whether or not they are gay (and don't care). Anyway, if they're not, I have to assume that they're interested enough in the technical aspects of the lighting to see past the subject matter. (I do tell them the nature of the site).

    I don't know if the website still has alot of spot-lit nudes, but give a look. Is it porn? Is it art? Those who would be shocked to see photos of erect males, please wear your blindfold while looking at the site.

    http://jimfrench.com/about.html

    .

  10. #240
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    A lot of the French stuff is merely gay beefcake with a few Herb Rittsy type gay arty stuff. At least on his site.

    I don't see much that is very arty and I don't see any great lighting here either, centainly not Hollywood glamour lighting.

    There seems to me to be a definite "gay beefcake" element in male nudes and in others more of a male nude study similar to a female nude study.

    His stuff to me seems like gay beefcake.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.



 

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