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  1. #301

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    Did I say ridicule? No I thing the term used was "rag on" and I included the quotes to show it was not my term. I should have translated that as say "examine deeply".

    And I believe that most religions, if not all traditional ones, have beliefs that will not hold up under scrutiny. And how is that hurtful?

    Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps you could point me to one that does not.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post
    Here's an On-Topic Bit:

    Is "Artistic Pornography" the same as "Pornographic Art"? (Are they both simply absurdities?)
    I would have to say "yes" to the first question here. And no to the second one.

  3. #303

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    If such remarks make people reluctant to express an opinion on APUG that is based upon their own beliefs because others wish to challenge them, to examine deeply, then such stifling of opinion seems to me to be outside of what APUG is for and such remarks are best saved for the soapbox.

    Such activities I believe would be better spent on a website that has as its intent the examination of religious thought.

    It may also be said that when it comes to matters of belief that science and logic are not at their heart. Is it our duty here to counteract and to provoke those that believe differently than do we? Should Aggie feel that membership in a photographic forum puts herself in the position of listening to attacks against, or having to defend, her religious beliefs?

    If in the case of pornography if I were to say that I consider pornorgraphy to be an abhorrence, that I personally am deeply offended by it, what is to be gained by taking issue with me? Why not just concede me the right to feel that way. Why not settle for stating your own view?

    If you feel that all of the major religions have foundations of bullshit so be it.
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

  4. #304

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    We are doomed

    This seems like a Monty Python argument thread. It's almost as bad as the pro-life issue.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire Senft View Post
    If such remarks make people reluctant to express an opinion on APUG that is based upon their own beliefs because others wish to challenge them, to examine deeply, then such stifling of opinion seems to me to be outside of what APUG is for and such remarks are best saved for the soapbox.
    I'm sorry Claire, but I'm confused: are you saying that some people should be able to express opinions, but others should not? Because that's really, really what it sounds like. I re-read what you've said several times and it always comes up that way.

    How about this instead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Claire
    If such remarks make people reluctant to express any opposing opinion on APUG simply because it contradicts anyone's different beliefs, then such stifling of opinion seems to me to be outside of what APUG is for and such remarks are best saved for the soapbox.
    What's the the point of an "Ethics and Philosophy" forum if discussion of those exact two topics can be blanket-vetoed at any time by someone rattling the silencing sabre of "faith"?

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
    KBPhotoRantPhotoPermitAPUG flickr Robot

  6. #306

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    It is apparent that what I have written is easily misread.
    Certainly, I intended to muzzle nobody. My statement is more intended as to whether an activity is worthy of being done and is constructive. I can believe what I wish..as may you. When someone says that their belief as a matter of faith makes something permissible... or the contrary... what is to be gained by a deep examination of their beliefs? In particular, what would be gained by rag on, ridicule or lambast someone that has beliefs different then our own? Would it not suffice to say "I understand your viewpoint and I am not in agreement. My view is xxxxxxxx." Both parties have stated their views. What is served with a deep examination of one's beliefs in a photgraphic forum? The parties have stated their ethics and philosophies relative to a photography situation.
    People understand one another's views. I would not move to prevent someone from making a closer examination but I would question the advisablity of doing so. Certainly, there is no good in my saying "your beliefs are bullshit." It becomes no better by my saying "Here is BS that make up the foundation of your faith. xxxxxxxxxxxx."

    I do apologize for writing unclearly.
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

  7. #307

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    I agree and disagree with Claire. I agree to the extent that little is to be gained by coaching one's positions or questions in offensive language. Instead of saying, "That's Bullshit!", or similar, it would behoove one to instead ask polite questions, along the lines of "If you believe..., what about ...?" Socratic questioning is much more effective at producing effective dialoque than coarseness or dismissiveness. On the other hand, we are adults, most of us anyway, and as rational people we should care about whether what we say is true. And the best way to do this is to discuss the matter with other reasonable people, especially if they don't agree with us. If people are too sensitive to really discuss issues, then they really shouldn't post their opinion publicly, especially on controversial matters. That's a shame, though. A quick look at public discourse shows that we need more decent, rational discussion of values (or other important matters) rather than less. For example, many people base public policy on their religious and ethical values. That alone is a good reason to examine them regularly.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    For example, many people base public policy on their religious and ethical values.
    It's already been made vividly clear that sometimes those public-policy values become enforced as photographic values, BTW.

    "What Would Zeus Do?"
    KBPhotoRantPhotoPermitAPUG flickr Robot

  9. #309

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    "Dirty pictures", James Woods in lead role, http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0217363/.
    Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
    No things in life should be left unfinis

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorke View Post
    It's already been made vividly clear that sometimes those public-policy values become enforced as photographic values, BTW.
    "Piss Christ"
    Lost you there Bjorke
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