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  1. #81
    kraker's Avatar
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    If logos in films would be a problem, the people who created Logorama sure would be knee-deep in... trouble.

    shuttr.net
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  2. #82
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    Emerson made two claims in court, reading the below first claim implies you need consent to use the trademark. I don't know what law specifically, but it is mentioned in general below (per above linked article). The defamation is another matter.

    "In the lawsuit, Emerson claims that NBC used Emerson's trademark without the company's consent..."

    I say it's a gray area and to be careful that's all I am trying to impart.

    If one wants to make a US released coffee table book (photo book) of all the 2011 John Deere tractors (logos and mention of John Deere) just don't be surprised if there is a knock on your door.

  3. #83
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    If one wants to make a US released coffee table book (photo book) of all the 2011 John Deere tractors (logos and mention of John Deere) just don't be surprised if there is a knock on your door.
    I really don't see why you couldn't do that. It's just a documentation of fact without being judgemental or spreading false information. There is no loss to the company so I don't see what they can claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    reading the below first claim implies you need consent to use the trademark. I don't know what law specifically.
    I'm sure there is no such law.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  4. #84
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    I really don't see why you couldn't do that. It's just a documentation of fact without being judgemental or spreading false information. There is no loss to the company so I don't see what they can claim.
    In fact, you can go much further. Think about the number of magazines available which compare things. Cars, TVs, washing machines, etc. Not only do they show the product, including the logos, but they also publish their opinions of them. If a reviewer thinks one manufacturer's washing machine is inferior compared to another, they will publish this opinion.

    This information can be much more damaging to a company than a mere book of photographs. The comments cannot be claimed to be defammatory as they are based on actual tests so the manufacturer has no comeback (except perhaps to stop advertising in that magazine!).


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  5. #85
    zsas's Avatar
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    I believe journalism plays by different rules. A for profit photo book could have trademark considerations depending of the use of the logo and trademark. I don't think the McDonalds and John Deere book would be at no-risk of orig trademark holder making a claim in the US.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Exactly and to bring it back to buildings, for e.g., you are free to photograph every McDonalds restaurant exterior you wish. But you can't sell a coffee table book called "My Tour Across America Documenting McDonalds' Restaurants". The logo and brand name are trademarked and therefore you would need consent from McDonalds. I think it gets more complex when logo's and/or trademarks become centerstage as opposed to say a cityscape with a golden arch way in the background and the intent if the book is to document skylines or something benign.
    Well, now that I know what a coffee table is, I'd like some clarification about this post. Do you have memory of such a book being challenged in court by McDonald's, or is it just an hypothesis of yours?

    To me it is very clear that you can call your book "My Tour Across America Documenting McDonald's Restaurants", but you cannot call it "My Tour Across America Documenting McDonald's Restaurants" using the McDonald's logo instead of the normal lettering.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
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  7. #87
    zsas's Avatar
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    The coffee table book I mention is hypothetical

  8. #88
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    I believe journalism plays by different rules. A for profit photo book could have trademark considerations depending of the use of the logo and trademark. I don't think the McDonalds and John Deere book would be at no-risk of orig trademark holder making a claim in the US.
    In the eyes of the law, a publication is a publication. If it is acceptable for a magazine called Which Tractor (I don't know if it exists but I bet it does) to publish pictures of the tractors they have tested (including logos/trademarks) and to publish glowing reports for those which performed admirably and damning reports for those which performed poorly, then a simple book of John Deere tractors with no judgemental text will also be acceptable.

    A magazine is a for profit publication in the same way as a photo book is.

    Magazines and newspapers publish illustrated reviews of all sorts of products from cars to sausages. They often compare similar products of many manufacturers and tell you which is the best and unfortunately for the manufacturer, which is worst. The manufacturer has no claim on the publisher as the opinions are just that, the opinions of a reviewer. Plus they are based on actual tests of actual products. None of this needs to be endorsed by the manufacturers as these are products available for purchase.

    To get back to the topic in hand, let us consider this scenario (using your example):

    I have produced a glossy full colour book of John Deere tractors. There is no judgemental text but there might be a list of features.

    Assume someone at John Deere got a copy of the book - I might even send them a free copy. And assume that they didn't like the idea of me making the book and were thinking of taking legal action.

    What are the grounds for this legal action? There is no defamation and no loss to the company.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    In the eyes of the law, a publication is a publication. If it is acceptable for a magazine called Which Tractor (I don't know if it exists but I bet it does) to publish pictures of the tractors they have tested (including logos/trademarks) and to publish glowing reports for those which performed admirably and damning reports for those which performed poorly, then a simple book of John Deere tractors with no judgemental text will also be acceptable.

    A magazine is a for profit publication in the same way as a photo book is.

    Magazines and newspapers publish illustrated reviews of all sorts of products from cars to sausages. They often compare similar products of many manufacturers and tell you which is the best and unfortunately for the manufacturer, which is worst. The manufacturer has no claim on the publisher as the opinions are just that, the opinions of a reviewer. Plus they are based on actual tests of actual products. None of this needs to be endorsed by the manufacturers as these are products available for purchase.

    To get back to the topic in hand, let us consider this scenario (using your example):

    I have produced a glossy full colour book of John Deere tractors. There is no judgemental text but there might be a list of features.

    Assume someone at John Deere got a copy of the book - I might even send them a free copy. And assume that they didn't like the idea of me making the book and were thinking of taking legal action.

    What are the grounds for this legal action? There is no defamation and no loss to the company.


    Steve.
    But in the USA recall that we have absurd tort law.

    I can sue John Deere because I don't like their tractor color. And they can sue me for wearing brown shoes to court.

    And those cases can go on until one of us runs out of money.

    None of it has to make sense.
    Michael Batchelor
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  10. #90
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    But in the USA recall that we have absurd tort law.

    I can sue John Deere because I don't like their tractor color. And they can sue me for wearing brown shoes to court.
    Don't they have to show some defamation, misrepresentation or loss in order to sue? Or in other words, a reason for suing?

    You can't just say "I don't like the colour of your tractors therefore I claim $1,000,000" can you?


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

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