Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 69,956   Posts: 1,522,882   Online: 1142
      
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 77
  1. #61
    Gary Holliday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Belfast, UK exiled in Cambridge UK.
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    816
    The fact is that the photos are going to end of being printed at the cheapest mini lab on glossy paper. All photographs require manipulation whether it's cropping, exposure or burning in. Friends of mine took the shoot and burn option and I sat back and listened to all the comments when the photographs were handed around the bar.

    The photographer in question had MPA Photographer of the year for "region". I doubt that if the MPA saw those photographs when they were judging, she wouldn't have been awarded the honour. She traded on a reputation that didn't reflect all of her services. My opinion is that those friends wasted £500 on shoot and burn in an attempt to save some money.

  2. #62
    2F/2F's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    8,008
    Images
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Holliday View Post
    The fact is that the photos are going to end of being printed at the cheapest mini lab on glossy paper. All photographs require manipulation whether it's cropping, exposure or burning in. Friends of mine took the shoot and burn option and I sat back and listened to all the comments when the photographs were handed around the bar.

    The photographer in question had MPA Photographer of the year for "region". I doubt that if the MPA saw those photographs when they were judging, she wouldn't have been awarded the honour. She traded on a reputation that didn't reflect all of her services. My opinion is that those friends wasted £500 on shoot and burn in an attempt to save some money.
    We do not do a "shoot and burn", as you call it. We do a basic "printing" of everything, just no Photoshop, no layers, etc. I do all my work in Canon Digital Photo Professional, and they do theirs in Bridge. These programs let you relatively quickly, yet totally manually, do the basic things that you do in a wet darkroom (density, contrast, color balance, cropping) without having to open stuff in PS. If it is not 90% editable in one of these programs, it is no good to begin with, IMO. When someone wants hundreds of pix delivered on a CD as part of the contract, and no prints, that is their decision, not mine.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  3. #63
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ignacio, CO, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,595
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Holliday View Post
    All photographs require manipulation whether it's cropping, exposure or burning in.
    Frankly Gary that is just your opinion. That may be very true for your chosen workflow and style, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    I would say that any image can be "changed" to manipulate it's look but it's by no means a given that improvement can be made. Improvement can only be defined when the expectations for the job are known.

    For my own work it depends on how hard I worked at the shoot and how well I've defined my "normal" processes for a given film. My goal is to be completely done creatively when the shutter drops. This is especially true of weddings.

    I crop with my feet and my zooms, I look for natural vignettes and frames and context, I use flash, skrims, and reflectors to burn and dodge and control contrast.

    At the end of the day I'm pretty well done and the film can be processed "normally" and printed without special work in the enlarger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Holliday View Post
    She traded on a reputation that didn't reflect all of her services. My opinion is that those friends wasted £500 on shoot and burn in an attempt to save some money.
    This is only true if there was something less than full disclosure on the photographers part. If the client was informed of the pitfalls and chose to press ahead there no reason to berate the photographer.

    There is no sin in providing great camera work and letting someone else do the rest.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #64
    Matt5791's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    England, Birmingham
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    998
    Images
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post

    There is no sin in providing great camera work and letting someone else do the rest.
    I'm not so sure about that - If you allow the client to print, and this is done poorly, then this can, at best, take away the impact of a great shot, but at worse give prospective clients a poor impression of your work.

    I can understand being protectionist about who handles / prints the negatives / files. Plenty of photographera will only supply a finished album or framed prints.

    Matt

  5. #65
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ignacio, CO, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,595
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5791 View Post
    I'm not so sure about that - If you allow the client to print, and this is done poorly, then this can, at best, take away the impact of a great shot, but at worse give prospective clients a poor impression of your work.
    The issue is not any specific great shot that the photographer likes, the issue is serving the market the photographer has chosen to be in profitably.

    In business the perfect intent is to make a profit, photography in this sense is just a means to an end. In business the only tests of a great shot are "does it meet the specification of the job (is the customer happy) and the business plan (Is it making me money)?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5791 View Post
    I can understand being protectionist about who handles / prints the negatives / files. Plenty of photographera will only supply a finished album or framed prints.

    Matt
    Protectionism in this sense is just about marketing, maintaining the reputation you want.

    If your business plan calls for selling prints by all means you should avoid work without prints.

    If somebody else's business offers just negs well so be it. They have chosen to serve a different market.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  6. #66
    JBrunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    6,780
    Mark hit it square on the head. There are so many ways to be a photographer, and so many methods within any given way. My portrait work, which is starting to go very well, is based on being the anti. In other words, I offer something that very few do. I know people around here that could, but it isn't where they are putting effort, so in effect, I'm the only one. The draw of my work is the print. Price shopper aren't part of my business plan. Folks who want something unique and are willing to pay for that are. There are many fewer of them, but I'm one of the only one meeting that need, so for me there are a lot. 10,000 cheapos for 10,000 photographers that serve that market, or 1000 folks for just one photographer. Not a tough choice.
    Last edited by JBrunner; 02-16-2009 at 10:52 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #67
    Matt5791's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    England, Birmingham
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    998
    Images
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    The issue is not any specific great shot that the photographer likes, the issue is serving the market the photographer has chosen to be in profitably.

    In business the perfect intent is to make a profit, photography in this sense is just a means to an end. In business the only tests of a great shot are "does it meet the specification of the job (is the customer happy) and the business plan (Is it making me money)?"



    Protectionism in this sense is just about marketing, maintaining the reputation you want.

    If your business plan calls for selling prints by all means you should avoid work without prints.

    If somebody else's business offers just negs well so be it. They have chosen to serve a different market.

    I agree with you, totally. I was simply saying, in my opinion, in the field of wedding photography, I think allowing the customer to print could be counter productive if your objective is to build a particular reputation. I am sure there are plenty of photographers earning a living and operating a profitable business and giving away copyright at the same time - as you say a different market.

  8. #68
    JBrunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    6,780
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5791 View Post
    I agree with you, totally. I was simply saying, in my opinion, in the field of wedding photography, I think allowing the customer to print could be counter productive if your objective is to build a particular reputation. I am sure there are plenty of photographers earning a living and operating a profitable business and giving away copyright at the same time - as you say a different market.
    Actually, most (but not all) of the people giving away copyright are the hangers on, the weekend warriors, the Moms with cameras, GWCs etc. They usually aren't profitable in any business sense. Most of them are actually losing money, but haven't figured it out. By the time they do, their place has been taken by the next crop. The only way you can compete with them is to lose money yourself, so don't bother to try. Go for the quality client.

  9. #69
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ignacio, CO, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,595
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5791 View Post
    I think allowing the customer to print could be counter productive if your objective is to build a particular reputation.
    This statement can be true, but that truth depends completely on the market and particular reputation someone may be wanting.

    As a photographer I'm not without control here even if the client is going to print on their own. I view it as part of my responsibility to know how the images will be printed.

    If I know that they will be printed by a minilab I know that I need to avoid using techniques that require some thought or judgment on the labs part. Shoot snap-shot style if you will.

    If it's commercial work, I need to shoot to the specs their lab expects.

    I can still provide value and show my style, I just have a narrow range to do it in because I can't fix the mistakes I make in the camera at printing time.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #70
    Nicholas Lindan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,372
    Images
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    Actually, most (but not all) of the people giving away copyright are the hangers on.
    The ones I have met are just trying it out for the fun of it, and the clients they have aren't really into elaborate weddings. It's weekend warrior or Aunt Mabel. They get what they pay for, but as they don't want much they don't pay much.

    In Britain, judging by my cousins, almost all wedding photography is done by hordes of relatives with P&S's.
    DARKROOM AUTOMATION
    f-Stop Timers - Enlarging Meters
    http://www.darkroomautomation.com/da-main.htm

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin