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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...processing film in tubes--after all, the tubes were designed for prints---sheet hangers were designed for sheets....the problem stems from using PRINT tubes with film---but that's what home processors must do...
    Jordan.K is using a Jobo 3005 Expert drum, not a "tube." The 3005 was designed specifically for film, not prints. Its five chambers are not cylindrical; they're "fat-waisted," i.e. the reverse of an hourglass. Assembled by hand from sheet stock to achieve that shape, the 3005 chambers are configured so they do permit liquids to reach the base side of film.

    If the issues Jordan.K has experienced arose during processing and weren't already present in unexposed film, there are two parameters that may be involved.

    First, although all current first-tier quality 8x10 black and white sheet films are coated on a 7-mil polyester base, significant differences exist between them in terms of flexibility. In my experience, Kodak 320TXP is much more rigid than the others, with TMX, TMY-2 and Delta 100 close behind. FP4 Plus is somewhat more flexible, HP5 Plus more flexible yet and Acros the most flexible of all. This can affect how they "hug" the individual chambers of a 3005 during rotary processing.

    Second, rotation speed (in combination with film flexibility) can affect how much sheets of film will shift around in the chambers. The optimum speed for black and white film in an Expert Drum, when using non-pyro developers, is around 45 rpm. Jobo documentation for the CPA/CPP processors was never updated when motor upgrades rendered it obsolete. Consequently, some users set their processor controls to "4," thereby running at an excessively high rotation speed. This can cause film to be batted about wildly, potentially resulting in base damage if there are any rough spots -- even minor ones -- in the chamber.

  2. #12
    Jim Noel's Avatar
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    I use FP4+ and HP5+.
    All film up to 8x10 gets developed in a Jobo drum and have never had the problems you mentioned.
    I have had students who had similar problems because they ran the Job at too high a rotation rate. I set mine as slow as it will go and still rotate smoothly.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Films NOT Dead - Just getting fixed![/FONT]

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...some people have lower standards...
    It must be difficult for you to deal with all we others -- even the really picky ones, like me -- with standards so much lower than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...tubes are drums are cylinders--the unicolors and the chromegas are also DESIGNED to get the chemicals back there...an they do--but they don't do it good enough for critical work like mine...
    You're referring to print drums which, unlike Jobo Expert drums, were not designed to get chemicals to the base side of prints or film. Without question the wrong tools for this job.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...I have certainly noticed the difference in rigidity from kodak films and others....I've mentioned that too only to be poo poo'ed about that as well...
    No, you've previously posted that Kodak film was thicker than others. I had to point out to you that it isn't, but that there is a difference in flexibility among the various products.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...accept for a moment that...the jobo system IS flawed and will always produce bad results just like trays...
    The Jobo Expert drum system is not flawed. It produces excellent results when used properly.

    I hope Simon doesn't waste too much of his time investigating issues related to processing in "tubes," since they are in no way appropriate for film development. However, since Jordan.K is appropriately using a Jobo Expert drum with his FP4 Plus, it will be very interesting to read what he and Simon discover about the issues he has been having. I'm especially curious to find out whether a manufacturing defect, rotation speed error or other development protocol misstep was to blame.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...please stop with the pedantic nit-picking...I'm trying to get a fiim producer to maybe perfect his product to my liking--don't ruin it for us, please.
    I'm sure Simon and Ilford are thrilled with your product development assistance. Don't worry, nothing I post in this thread to correct misinformation could possibly dissuade them from following your advice.

  5. #15
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    JE -- I would guess that the majority of the Jobo Expert Drum users use them on motor bases (my method), rolling them on counter tops or rolling them in a tray of water (as a tempering bath)...and not on Jobo processors.

    The Expert Drums are not perfect. If I need perfection (and generally with my images and printing processes I do not need perfection), I would tray develop with a piece of glass in the tray to prevent any scratching. I do not mind the bit of extra time and effort that would require, as the time and effort is nothing compared to the time spent traveling, finding and recording the image, and the time I will spend making the print(s).

    I do get scratches on the backside of the film occasionally, but these can not be seen in my prints, so I do not worry about them. And these scratches could just as easily come from me loading the film into the film holders than from the drums.

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...the future is, de facto, that there is no more jobo and there is no jobo in the future--there are no replacement parts and the existing ones will break...
    All things will break, but Jobo does still supply replacement parts. Used CPA/CPP/Autolab processors are obtainable on the used market. And, Jobo still manufactures and sells 3005 Expert drums brand new. See this post from yesterday for someone who purchased one:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1288169

    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...good to see we're back to solving problems here...
    Everything I posted has been aimed at assisting Jordan.K with his problem. Nothing for me to get "back to."

    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ...since the future likely does not include kodak and does not include jobo film processing except for those that have a stash of kodak that keeps and a jobo processor that keeps running, it looks like everybody's going to have to work together to get what's available to work together, including me and you...
    Can't speak for you, but I've always valued planning ahead. While I respect, admire, use and defend Ilford's top-quality products, far in the future there will be a time when even Ilford joins Kodak in the history books. Therefore, back in 2005, I stockpiled many thousands of sheets of Azo paper. I also purchased two Jobo processors, a CPA-2 and CPP-2, so as to have a spare for when parts eventually do become unavailable, along with a collection of tanks and Expert drums. Finally, I have obtained and placed in our freezer a large quantity of 320TXP sheet film. Taken together, these are my "doomsday" supplies. I don't anticipate needing to use them for many, many years.

    In the meantime, Ilford film and paper are my mainstays. I primarily use FP4 Plus, but sometimes HP5 Plus, in 4x5, 5x7, Whole Plate and 8x10 sizes. Prints have been made on Adox MCC 110, but I recently found a developer and toning combination that works exquisitely with fiber based MGWT, so it will supplant the Adox for most images, given that its curve shape is more pleasing to me.

    One thing not previously mentioned in this thread is that, whether developing Kodak or Ilford film, for 8x10 I don't use the 3005 Expert drum. Inserting that size film in those chambers is a tighter fit than I'm comfortable with. Instead, I use the rare and precious 3004 drum for 8x10. Its larger chambers seem better suited and are easier to load/unload. Purchasing only one 3004 drum before they were discontinued was my single largest planning failure. Although one can find them on the used market, listings are far and few between. If my shooting involved more 8x10, I'd be patiently looking for another 3004. However, since I mainly use 5x7 and whole plate film, processing 4 sheets of 8x10 and then having to dry the drum before running another batch has been an acceptable compromise.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ok I'm giving up on this thread---the dude trolling me will only fill it up with more rot to confuse everyone...

    "I have no problems with a jobo and the jobo is the best" helps nobody no matter what you think.....bye bye...I'll contact the ilford guy privately too.
    The "Ilford guy" is named Simon, as it shows in his posts. Since you are seeking his help with your problem, it seems most disrespectful not to, at the very least, refer to him by name.

    FWIW, I use Bostick & Sullivan's Rollo Pyro in my 3005 with Ilford HP5. I use a Bessler roller base, going in one direction only, and have never had a problem with scratches or uneven development.

  8. #18
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    ok I'm giving up on this thread---the dude trolling me will only fill it up with more rot to confuse everyone...

    "I have no problems with a jobo and the jobo is the best" helps nobody no matter what you think.....bye bye...I'll contact the ilford guy privately too.
    I have no problems getting Jobo parts.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  9. #19
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan.K View Post
    ... I presoaked, used xtol, normal stop bath, and normal fixer ...
    Read the last line. From page 49 of the Jobo manual:







    Case closed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Picture 1.png  
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  10. #20
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Thanks Sirius, but if one uses a "pre"-rinse, does that mean one still uses a rinse? J/K...
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

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