Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 71,872   Posts: 1,583,450   Online: 1148
      
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 38
  1. #21
    cliveh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    3,669
    Images
    344
    Look, let’s stop pondering over semantics and try and help Masimix and me with what is pseudo-solarisation, or Sabattier or call it what you like. I have always thought that the effect is primarily reliant on three or four factors –
    With prints:-
    1) Original contrast of negative/filtration.
    2) When you flash/fog during development time.
    3) Flash/fog duration.
    4) Contrast setting of flashing enlarger (assuming you use an enlarger as the fogging source).
    With film:-
    1) Original contrast of latent image.
    2) When you flash/fog during development time.
    3) High/low intensity and duration of light source.
    4) Flash/fog duration.

    Now can anyone advise how to achieve results like Man Ray?
    Last edited by cliveh; 02-17-2012 at 06:13 PM. Click to view previous post history.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  2. #22
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    23,542
    Images
    65
    I don't recommend the use of an enlarger for paper flashing. After all, it is wet! Leave it in the tray and just use a flashlight, a safelight, or room light.

    Flashing early gives poor results, resulting in images that lose the effect by allowing development to overtake the pos and neg images. Flash too short and the image is weak. Flash too long or with too much light gives a dense pos image.

    Do it just right! And that can only be done by experimentation.

    Attached are 2 color prints which show the original and the one with the Sabbattier effect. The original was a cross processed negative from EPP exposed at ISO 100 and processed in C41 and then the second print was flashed 2/3 of the way through development with an open safelight at about 5'. The flash was about 3". The process was romm temp tray using RA4 and Endura paper.

    PE
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails flower trio 2.jpg   flower trio 1.jpg  

  3. #23
    cliveh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    3,669
    Images
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I don't recommend the use of an enlarger for paper flashing. After all, it is wet! Leave it in the tray and just use a flashlight, a safelight, or room light.

    Flashing early gives poor results, resulting in images that lose the effect by allowing development to overtake the pos and neg images. Flash too short and the image is weak. Flash too long or with too much light gives a dense pos image.

    Do it just right! And that can only be done by experimentation.

    Attached are 2 color prints which show the original and the one with the Sabbattier effect. The original was a cross processed negative from EPP exposed at ISO 100 and processed in C41 and then the second print was flashed 2/3 of the way through development with an open safelight at about 5'. The flash was about 3". The process was romm temp tray using RA4 and Endura paper.

    PE
    You can still flash under an enlarger in a tray if your concern is about getting the baseboard wet and using an enlarger you can give precise time and contrast when using multigrade peper.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  4. #24
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    23,542
    Images
    65
    I didn't say you can't. I said that I don't recommend it, having tried it personally! It is too messy and brings wet to dry. I keep a strict wet / dry side protocol in my darkroom that I have been taught and which I have taught to students. It is a very good way to work and to keep from having chemical contamination.

    PE

  5. #25
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,706
    Images
    14
    I am not arguing any semantics, hope this helps with your demand.

    Man Rays solarizations were done primaraly to the film, All black makie lines are a film solarization.. Print solarizations will create a white makie line.
    Following is what I think is the way to do this with film or print for that matter



    1- Metol only developer , no hydroquinnone
    2- flash at mid point
    3. I use a point light source on a timer with different stop settings about 4 ft above the developer tray or where I lay the film .
    4. for prints I use a grade 4 filter with Ilford Warmtone, a softer filter if I want a moodier effect
    5. for negatives I use Ilford FP4 with a slight underexposure and I flash at the mid point.
    6. In both cases a contrasy lighting scene is usually better for image capture than flat lighting.
    7. When you flash film or print the sequence must be repeatable and it is repeatable, and you must get the film or paper agitated quickly post exposure or you will get flow lines.
    8. The source of flash will determine the effect , stronger intensity will make the print almost normal with no effect, less flash will give you more effect
    9. Same goes for initial print exposure, more intensity the image will look real,less intensity will give you more effect.
    10. The balancing act between filter, exposure, flash strength , duration,, agitation is repeatable with practice, I never deviate with the process time and pull the print early, this will lead to inconsistant results.
    11. You can use a second developer tray with tons of potassium bromide which will give you a different grain structure for the solarized area which in turn gives you more colour options when toning.
    12. Same developer for film or paper can be used.
    13. Did I mention no hydroquinnone????????
    14. For prints the perfect flash time is when the print is slightly flat and light by normal standards... judging by what I see in the brief 2 seconds of negative flash the same rule applies.
    15. Dodging and burning have the exact opposite result than regular printing.
    16. Flat objects or surfaces are more interesting than very complicated scenes.... to many lines achieved.
    17. I use lots of chemicals and make sure the paper is floating on top during the flash.
    19. I do not agitate the film as strongly as I would with regular film.
    20. Good darkroom techniques are critical for solarization.

    You need to do some legwork of your own rather than someone else spell it out for you, the above is after 10 years of playing around with this amazing process,,,, read Dr Jolly's paper on Solarization and make a few hundred attemps, and it will all be clear. His notes are exact and after a few thousand attemps in my darkroom, I am amazed at how well written his paper was.
    He really nailed it.


    Bob



    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Look, let’s stop pondering over semantics and try and help Masimix and me with what is pseudo-solarisation, or Sabattier or call it what you like. I have always thought that the effect is primarily reliant on three or four factors –
    With prints:-
    1) Original contrast of negative/filtration.
    2) When you flash/fog during development time.
    3) Flash/fog duration.
    4) Contrast setting of flashing enlarger (assuming you use an enlarger as the fogging source).
    With film:-
    1) Original contrast of latent image.
    2) When you flash/fog during development time.
    3) High/low intensity and duration of light source.
    4) Flash/fog duration.

    Now can anyone advise how to achieve results like Man Ray?

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    South Western Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    73

    Solarization Demystified

    Solarization Demystified

    Historical, Artistic and Technical Aspects of the Sabatier Effect By William L. Jolly

    http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/wljeme/SOUTLINE.html

  7. #27
    cliveh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    3,669
    Images
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    I am not arguing any semantics, hope this helps with your demand.

    Man Rays solarizations were done primaraly to the film, All black makie lines are a film solarization.. Print solarizations will create a white makie line.
    Following is what I think is the way to do this with film or print for that matter



    1- Metol only developer , no hydroquinnone
    2- flash at mid point
    3. I use a point light source on a timer with different stop settings about 4 ft above the developer tray or where I lay the film .
    4. for prints I use a grade 4 filter with Ilford Warmtone, a softer filter if I want a moodier effect
    5. for negatives I use Ilford FP4 with a slight underexposure and I flash at the mid point.
    6. In both cases a contrasy lighting scene is usually better for image capture than flat lighting.
    7. When you flash film or print the sequence must be repeatable and it is repeatable, and you must get the film or paper agitated quickly post exposure or you will get flow lines.
    8. The source of flash will determine the effect , stronger intensity will make the print almost normal with no effect, less flash will give you more effect
    9. Same goes for initial print exposure, more intensity the image will look real,less intensity will give you more effect.
    10. The balancing act between filter, exposure, flash strength , duration,, agitation is repeatable with practice, I never deviate with the process time and pull the print early, this will lead to inconsistant results.
    11. You can use a second developer tray with tons of potassium bromide which will give you a different grain structure for the solarized area which in turn gives you more colour options when toning.
    12. Same developer for film or paper can be used.
    13. Did I mention no hydroquinnone????????
    14. For prints the perfect flash time is when the print is slightly flat and light by normal standards... judging by what I see in the brief 2 seconds of negative flash the same rule applies.
    15. Dodging and burning have the exact opposite result than regular printing.
    16. Flat objects or surfaces are more interesting than very complicated scenes.... to many lines achieved.
    17. I use lots of chemicals and make sure the paper is floating on top during the flash.
    19. I do not agitate the film as strongly as I would with regular film.
    20. Good darkroom techniques are critical for solarization.

    You need to do some legwork of your own rather than someone else spell it out for you, the above is after 10 years of playing around with this amazing process,,,, read Dr Jolly's paper on Solarization and make a few hundred attemps, and it will all be clear. His notes are exact and after a few thousand attemps in my darkroom, I am amazed at how well written his paper was.
    He really nailed it.


    Bob
    Bob, thanks very much, this is most informative. I also appreciate it needs much practice, but your info helps as a starting point.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  8. #28
    Marco B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,983
    Images
    169
    Quote Originally Posted by masimix View Post
    Is it possible?

    ...

    Can Ilford RC-paper and Ilford MG-developer be used succesfully? (It's what we use at the school now). We have EFKE 25 ISO 4x5" film, so maybe that is a good one to try for film?

    Any tip and experiences you have would be great, thanks!

    Marius
    I only tried paper "solarization" / Sabattier once. Paper used was standard Ilford MGIV FB and I just used plain Ilford Multigrade developer and used a small probably 10W tungsten light source / lamp above the paper developer tray. I don't remember the exposure time, probably a few seconds at the most. As you can see (left image), the image is low contrast and fogged (brown colors is from brush applied sepia toner), but it was just a single darkroom session where I experimented with it. I still kind of like the image though. The right image is a reverse contact printed copy of the left (paper-on-paper), entirely sepia toned.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DN1_144_22_1.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	55.4 KB 
ID:	46872Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DN1_144_22_2.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	63.1 KB 
ID:	46873
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  9. #29
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,706
    Images
    14
    For me the key point was when I read Mr Jolly's paper about this process.. Following his chemical mix to the letter was very important. I use his two developer method for prints and one developer method for film.

    Did I mention Metol only , not Hydroquinonne..... probably the most important factor.

    Many papers work well, I just gravitated to Ilford Warmtone.

    If you are in Toronto in May I will be showing my new work at the Contact Festival, and if you are in Alberta in Feb 2013 , I will be showing this work there as well during their photo festival.
    I am concentrating my efforts now on film solarizations and printing them big on Art 300 paper. I have been using an old 8x10 Studio camera as well as 4x5 and really like the simplicity of the quick flash smack dab in the middle of development.

  10. #30
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,706
    Images
    14
    Thats the one I have been reading and following for years now...
    Quote Originally Posted by bluejeh View Post
    Solarization Demystified

    Historical, Artistic and Technical Aspects of the Sabatier Effect By William L. Jolly

    http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/wljeme/SOUTLINE.html

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin