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Thread: rule of thumb

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    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    rule of thumb

    is there a general ruleof hoe developer dilution affects fil characteritics likr\e grainyness, sharpnessetc, and what is the logic behind it?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    No unfortunately there isn't.

    Grain gets coarser and sharpness and acutance improve with dilution with developers like D76/ID-11 and Xtol as the Sulphite level drops however some of the Universal developers like PQ Universal the grain gets finer with dilution as the Carbonate (& hydroxide) gets diluted.

    Ian

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    zsas's Avatar
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    Ian - so using that train of thought in the non-PQ's, does higher amounts of sulfite make grain finer?
    Andy

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    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Ian - so using that train of thought in the non-PQ's, does higher amounts of sulfite make grain finer?
    Yes it can, but that also applies to PQ developers like ID-68 (Microphen) and Autophen (a PQ version of ID-11/D76).

    Some Geraman photographers would add extra Sulphite to dilute Rodinal ti give finer grain, this was actually once a recommendation (pre WWII) from Agfa to prolong tray/tank life once diluted. We forget that at one time Rodinal, and it's clones like Certinal (Ilford), Azol (M&B) were used for prints as well as films although not a such great dilutions, by the time Kodinol (Kodak UK) was released these p-Aminophenol developers were only being used for films.

    The downside to increased Sulphite is less distinct grain and a loss of sharpness and acutance so it's about getting the best balance.

    The Agfa 44 (Agfa Ansco/GAF 17) and Adox Borax MQ developers drop the Sulphite level to 80g/l compared to the 100g/l of ID-11/D76 and this gives better sharpnedd & acutance, the ration of M to Q is dropped and there's a slight improvement in grain as wll, as a consequnce tonality is improvered.

    Ian

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    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    No unfortunately there isn't.

    Grain gets coarser and sharpness and acutance improve with dilution with developers like D76/ID-11 and Xtol as the Sulphite level drops however some of the Universal developers like PQ Universal the grain gets finer with dilution as the Carbonate (& hydroxide) gets diluted.

    Ian
    any possible explanationwhy?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    any possible explanationwhy?
    Yes Sulphite is a mild silver solvent, this helps keep the grain size down. Two extremes would be D23 which is just Metol and Sulphite and is Beutler which has Metol, Sulphite and Carbonate.

    So:

    D23
    Metol 7.5g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 100g
    Water to 1 litre

    Beutler
    Metol 1g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 5g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 5g
    Water to 1 litre

    D23 gives relatively fine soft grain with mediocre sharpness, Beutler gives coarser grain with excellents sharpness and acutance. Because of it's higher pH Beutler requires a much lowerer level of developing agent.

    ID-11/D76 etc lie somewhere between the two with a milder alkali and gives a relatively balanced compromise of grain, sharpness, acutance and tonality.

    Ian

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    Ian, where does xtol fall into this scheme of things? My first thought is that it would fall close to D76/D11.

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    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabino View Post
    Ian, where does xtol fall into this scheme of things? My first thought is that it would fall close to D76/D11.
    In terms of the Sulphite yes close to ID-11/D76 but other factors come into play as well like the choice of developing agents as well as the pH.

    Ian

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    "We forget that at one time Rodinal, and it's clones like Certinal (Ilford), Azol (M&B) were used for prints as well as films although not a such great dilutions, by the time Kodinol (Kodak UK) was released these p-Aminophenol developers were only being used for films."


    Ian, could you direct me to a Rodinal formula for prints? I've been looking for one, old one is fine.

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    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingWaves View Post
    "We forget that at one time Rodinal, and it's clones like Certinal (Ilford), Azol (M&B) were used for prints as well as films although not a such great dilutions, by the time Kodinol (Kodak UK) was released these p-Aminophenol developers were only being used for films."


    Ian, could you direct me to a Rodinal formula for prints? I've been looking for one, old one is fine.
    Rodinal, it's the dilution that's important and it's not so economic these days, you'd need to use it 1+10 to 1+15.

    The Rodinal (old type) formula in most moder books is wrong as they use p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride. Rodinal has always been made containing the p-Aminophenol free base right from it's introduction. I posted some suggestions in the articles section under Modern Rodinal equivalents.

    Ian

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